Today's postings
- [Baren 39095] RE: paper... our love and hate relationships ("Mike Lyon")
- [Baren 39096] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships (Annie Bissett)
- [Baren 39097] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships ("Roy")
- [Baren 39098] re:papers ("bobcatpath # 207me.com")
- [Baren 39099] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships (cjchapel # casco.net)
- [Baren 39100] paper and ink again (Barbara Mason)
Message 1
From: "Mike Lyon"
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:35:13 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39095] RE: paper... our love and hate relationships
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Hi, Barbara - here's what I've used:
Papers for Japanese technique:
* Iwano Ichibei papers for hanga - he made 100 sheets of 77x44
without laid lines for me - WONDERFUL STUFF but about $70 per sheet sized
and delivered to Kansas City -- expensive enough that I don't want too many
mistakes when printing it!
* Iwano Ichibei double oban and quad oban sheets - his standard fare
- reasonably priced considering that it is by far and away the most perfect
material I've used for hanga - gorgeous stuff even before printing! VERY
strong stuff and holds up well even when abused by over-saturating and many
many over-printings!
* Yamaguchi hosho from Baren Mall - very good paper, strongly sized
with more than usual alum (maybe - or maybe addition of mica or something) -
size is very reflective and glittery - unusual surface - works very well for
hanga.
* Nishinouchi from McClains - MUCH weaker than above papers and tends
to delaminate but takes color and prints well.
* Gampi from McClains and other sources - again, MUCH weaker than
Iwano-san or Yamaguchi papers, but satiny-sheen surface is gorgeous (and
gampi papers tend to feel soft and luxurious) - delaminates easily so care
must be taken during printing.
* Kitikata - tissue thin but makes nice prints
* Mulberry paper from Daniel Smith and others - very inexpensive and
very lightweight paper but super strong and prints well - so thin that care
must be taken as it's easy to over-saturate - otherwise, takes color well
and holds up during repeated over-printings.
* Hosho and 'Professional Hosho' from Daniel Smith and others - very
soft (unsized?) paper which pills easily during printing and is too 'white'
for my taste - difficult to print due to softness and I don't much like it.
* Okawara Scroll from Daniel Smith and others - very large sheets and
very inexpensive - similar to mulberry paper - prints well, but it's very
thin so doesn't hold much moisture before becoming over-saturated.
* Iyo-Glazed from Daniel Smith and others - inexpensive and very
crispy paper with hard size - naturally produces 'goma-zuri' due to
clumpy-variations in thickness - pigments tend to sit on top so prints very
brightly - nice stuff for 'shin-hanga' style printings.
* Masa - inexpensive but VERY weak paper - pills easily - popular,
but I dislike it!
* Rives BFK - heavy paper not ideal for hanga but works OK - very
soft -- not too expensive and available in 45 inch wide by 30 feet rolls as
well as sheets - prints very well and looks and feels great. Not strong
enough for intense drawing, but great for monotype, relief, lithography,
etc.
* Rives lightweight - too soft for decent hanga, IMO
* Various hot-pressed watercolor papers - all of them work well for
hanga - tend to be very bright and pigments tend to remain on surface due to
heavy sizing throughout paper body. Relatively inexpensive and available in
very wide and very long rolls. Various thicknesses readily available from
numerous sources.
Pigments for Japanese technique:
* Pigment dispersions from Art Guerra, Daniel Smith, Createx brand
(and others) - excellent for hanga - inexpensive and VERY easy to use -
Guerra uses ethylene glycol to allow dispersions to be used in water or oil
based binders and vehicles - not sure about the others. These are my
preferred pigments these days - very easy to use, very safe (no inhalation
concern), a natural choice for hanga.
* Dry pigments from Daniel Smith and others - ease of use varies with
pigment - cheapest colors - some must be mixed first in alcohol - inhalation
danger from all fine powders - easy to spill and a tiny spill will color an
entire studio floor (voice of experience here)! Fineness of grind varies
with manufacturer and pigment. Sometimes there are odd 'mixing' problems or
effects due to incompatible pigments. Pigment powders CAN be mixed directly
into rice paste or methyl cellulose quite easily (easier than mixing with
water or alcohol then water). High viscosity of paste seems to make
physical blending of smooth color easier.
* Prepared watercolors and gouaches in tubes or cakes- more expensive
lines have more pigment - all give good results in hanga but all are
terribly expensive compared to pigment dispersions and/or dry pigments, so I
have discontinued using them. The vehicles and binders do make prepared
watercolors behave somewhat differently than straight pigments and
dispersions, though... Goma-zuri can be difficult to produce depending on
the watercolor - most vehicles tend to allow the pigment to 'spread' evenly
without paste, so can somewhat limit range of effects possible with dry
pigment and dispersions.
* Titanium White dry pigment - when mixed into rice paste produces a
MOST intense and opaque white which is very nice when needed!
* Carbon Blacks - I prefer the blacks produced from carbon (bone
black, channel black, etc).
* Sumi - inexpensive and VERY black prepared sumi - but some tend to
dry with an unattractive (to me) red or purple sheen when saturated
(especially when printed over certain blues) Yasutomo KF12 (green bottle)
seems to produce that sheen while Yasutomo KY12 (black bottle) does not (go
figure).
* Neri-zumi from Baren Mall (made from old ink sticks, I think) has
worked very well for me, but I think each jar may be slightly different.
* Micas and metallics - all very interesting to use, but seem to
produce best and most intense surface when applied to printed paste or glue
binder rather than mixed into paste or glue and printed as if they were
'normal' pigments.
* Akua - I don't much like these for hanga - colors tend to look
'dead' and a bit opaque to my eye. Many other printers LOVE them, though,
so you'll need to try them yourself, I think.
* SpeedBall 'water based' printing inks - these look very chalky to
me and I don't like them at all.
-- Mike
Mike Lyon
Kansas City, MO
http://mlyon.com
Papers for Japanese technique:
* Iwano Ichibei papers for hanga - he made 100 sheets of 77x44
without laid lines for me - WONDERFUL STUFF but about $70 per sheet sized
and delivered to Kansas City -- expensive enough that I don't want too many
mistakes when printing it!
* Iwano Ichibei double oban and quad oban sheets - his standard fare
- reasonably priced considering that it is by far and away the most perfect
material I've used for hanga - gorgeous stuff even before printing! VERY
strong stuff and holds up well even when abused by over-saturating and many
many over-printings!
* Yamaguchi hosho from Baren Mall - very good paper, strongly sized
with more than usual alum (maybe - or maybe addition of mica or something) -
size is very reflective and glittery - unusual surface - works very well for
hanga.
* Nishinouchi from McClains - MUCH weaker than above papers and tends
to delaminate but takes color and prints well.
* Gampi from McClains and other sources - again, MUCH weaker than
Iwano-san or Yamaguchi papers, but satiny-sheen surface is gorgeous (and
gampi papers tend to feel soft and luxurious) - delaminates easily so care
must be taken during printing.
* Kitikata - tissue thin but makes nice prints
* Mulberry paper from Daniel Smith and others - very inexpensive and
very lightweight paper but super strong and prints well - so thin that care
must be taken as it's easy to over-saturate - otherwise, takes color well
and holds up during repeated over-printings.
* Hosho and 'Professional Hosho' from Daniel Smith and others - very
soft (unsized?) paper which pills easily during printing and is too 'white'
for my taste - difficult to print due to softness and I don't much like it.
* Okawara Scroll from Daniel Smith and others - very large sheets and
very inexpensive - similar to mulberry paper - prints well, but it's very
thin so doesn't hold much moisture before becoming over-saturated.
* Iyo-Glazed from Daniel Smith and others - inexpensive and very
crispy paper with hard size - naturally produces 'goma-zuri' due to
clumpy-variations in thickness - pigments tend to sit on top so prints very
brightly - nice stuff for 'shin-hanga' style printings.
* Masa - inexpensive but VERY weak paper - pills easily - popular,
but I dislike it!
* Rives BFK - heavy paper not ideal for hanga but works OK - very
soft -- not too expensive and available in 45 inch wide by 30 feet rolls as
well as sheets - prints very well and looks and feels great. Not strong
enough for intense drawing, but great for monotype, relief, lithography,
etc.
* Rives lightweight - too soft for decent hanga, IMO
* Various hot-pressed watercolor papers - all of them work well for
hanga - tend to be very bright and pigments tend to remain on surface due to
heavy sizing throughout paper body. Relatively inexpensive and available in
very wide and very long rolls. Various thicknesses readily available from
numerous sources.
Pigments for Japanese technique:
* Pigment dispersions from Art Guerra, Daniel Smith, Createx brand
(and others) - excellent for hanga - inexpensive and VERY easy to use -
Guerra uses ethylene glycol to allow dispersions to be used in water or oil
based binders and vehicles - not sure about the others. These are my
preferred pigments these days - very easy to use, very safe (no inhalation
concern), a natural choice for hanga.
* Dry pigments from Daniel Smith and others - ease of use varies with
pigment - cheapest colors - some must be mixed first in alcohol - inhalation
danger from all fine powders - easy to spill and a tiny spill will color an
entire studio floor (voice of experience here)! Fineness of grind varies
with manufacturer and pigment. Sometimes there are odd 'mixing' problems or
effects due to incompatible pigments. Pigment powders CAN be mixed directly
into rice paste or methyl cellulose quite easily (easier than mixing with
water or alcohol then water). High viscosity of paste seems to make
physical blending of smooth color easier.
* Prepared watercolors and gouaches in tubes or cakes- more expensive
lines have more pigment - all give good results in hanga but all are
terribly expensive compared to pigment dispersions and/or dry pigments, so I
have discontinued using them. The vehicles and binders do make prepared
watercolors behave somewhat differently than straight pigments and
dispersions, though... Goma-zuri can be difficult to produce depending on
the watercolor - most vehicles tend to allow the pigment to 'spread' evenly
without paste, so can somewhat limit range of effects possible with dry
pigment and dispersions.
* Titanium White dry pigment - when mixed into rice paste produces a
MOST intense and opaque white which is very nice when needed!
* Carbon Blacks - I prefer the blacks produced from carbon (bone
black, channel black, etc).
* Sumi - inexpensive and VERY black prepared sumi - but some tend to
dry with an unattractive (to me) red or purple sheen when saturated
(especially when printed over certain blues) Yasutomo KF12 (green bottle)
seems to produce that sheen while Yasutomo KY12 (black bottle) does not (go
figure).
* Neri-zumi from Baren Mall (made from old ink sticks, I think) has
worked very well for me, but I think each jar may be slightly different.
* Micas and metallics - all very interesting to use, but seem to
produce best and most intense surface when applied to printed paste or glue
binder rather than mixed into paste or glue and printed as if they were
'normal' pigments.
* Akua - I don't much like these for hanga - colors tend to look
'dead' and a bit opaque to my eye. Many other printers LOVE them, though,
so you'll need to try them yourself, I think.
* SpeedBall 'water based' printing inks - these look very chalky to
me and I don't like them at all.
-- Mike
Mike Lyon
Kansas City, MO
http://mlyon.com
Message 2
From: Annie Bissett
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:38:32 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39096] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships
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Hi Baren and Barbara,
I've tried several papers for moku hanga and settled on three for
now. I use Guerra Pigment suspensions and a baren for all my printing.
I like Rives heavyweight (not BFK) when I need to work on inexpensive
paper. Rives is internally sized, doesn't stretch much when damp, and
holds up quite well under repeated overprinting and baren pressure.
Matt Brown recommended this paper to me.
The premium paper I use is Echizen Kozo from McClain's. I like the
texture of the paper and it's soft yet strong. It's pretty
translucent for such a thick paper and has a bit of a glow. Colors
stay bright and clear even on the off-white color.
Lately I've been using Nishinouchi, also from McClain's. This paper
is thin and translucent and I haven't tried it with designs that
require many many overprintings (max has been about 12 impressions,
and it did hold up for that altho with a bit of stretching). The
colors dry a little dull on this paper.
Great idea to take a paper poll.
Annie
I've tried several papers for moku hanga and settled on three for
now. I use Guerra Pigment suspensions and a baren for all my printing.
I like Rives heavyweight (not BFK) when I need to work on inexpensive
paper. Rives is internally sized, doesn't stretch much when damp, and
holds up quite well under repeated overprinting and baren pressure.
Matt Brown recommended this paper to me.
The premium paper I use is Echizen Kozo from McClain's. I like the
texture of the paper and it's soft yet strong. It's pretty
translucent for such a thick paper and has a bit of a glow. Colors
stay bright and clear even on the off-white color.
Lately I've been using Nishinouchi, also from McClain's. This paper
is thin and translucent and I haven't tried it with designs that
require many many overprintings (max has been about 12 impressions,
and it did hold up for that altho with a bit of stretching). The
colors dry a little dull on this paper.
Great idea to take a paper poll.
Annie
Message 3
From: "Roy"
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:48:58 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39097] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships
Send Message: To this poster
I have had minimal experience with a large variety of papers, but here it
is:
I, too, have a drawer of mystery paper, but recent purchases are still in
their plastic
wrapper with marker notes on the front of the wrapper.
For traditional moku hanga I use hosho paper from a well known internet
supplier.
It is very white, has a nice, soft appearance and feel and it takes
embossing well.
If things get too wet for too long it does shed fibers; the sizing is not
very heavy.
It takes a bit of experience to know just how damp to make and keep the
paper
especially in our dry climate.
Laid lines are barely visible but can be seen holding it to the light.
There is a cheaper 'student' version, but I have not tried it. I figure
that if you are
going to take the time and effort and value your work, pay for good paper.
I have also printed moku hanga on masa paper. It prints well and is cheaper,
but it is a bit too floppy, and it is easy to mix up which side is smooth
and which is
textured.
Roy Leroux
is:
I, too, have a drawer of mystery paper, but recent purchases are still in
their plastic
wrapper with marker notes on the front of the wrapper.
For traditional moku hanga I use hosho paper from a well known internet
supplier.
It is very white, has a nice, soft appearance and feel and it takes
embossing well.
If things get too wet for too long it does shed fibers; the sizing is not
very heavy.
It takes a bit of experience to know just how damp to make and keep the
paper
especially in our dry climate.
Laid lines are barely visible but can be seen holding it to the light.
There is a cheaper 'student' version, but I have not tried it. I figure
that if you are
going to take the time and effort and value your work, pay for good paper.
I have also printed moku hanga on masa paper. It prints well and is cheaper,
but it is a bit too floppy, and it is easy to mix up which side is smooth
and which is
textured.
Roy Leroux
Message 4
From: "bobcatpath # 207me.com"
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:41:33 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39098] re:papers
Send Message: To this poster
concerning paper
i always loved TABLEAU which i bought in a huge rolls from Graphic Chemical
it was economical and very strong - altho i dont work wet people- say it had great wet strength
alas Dean informed us a while ago that it is no longer available
is this still the case?
i had purchased HAKUSAN from Aiko's a long time ago and loved it
so when they were going out of business last spring
i had my son (who lives in Chicago) go in and get me some .
i sent him an old catalog page to show them, so he would get the right paper.
well ! they had a great laugh about that old page and the price
as it was probably from the mid eighties.
i got the last of the hakusan they had.
its a very bright white, smooth on one side and a little rough on the other .
lately i ordered a roll of "Stonehenge RISING" which is cream colored and pretty thick,
i dont use a press but it works great with my baren and i can print a block 40" as its 42" wide
i really prefer the rolls for the leeway for printing very large blocks
i got this from Daniel Smith
they have good selection and good sales
has anyone ever gotten paper from David Sander -wood engraver/teacher-chicago area?
he used to have a paper he called Sanderson which was a roll but only about 30"
it was a good midweight cream colored paper
i have not heard from him in years , is he still out there ?
another reason for liking the rolls is that they can be suspended from the ceiling
on a dowel for easy cutting and out of the way storage
paper thoughts from Gillyin in maine
i always loved TABLEAU which i bought in a huge rolls from Graphic Chemical
it was economical and very strong - altho i dont work wet people- say it had great wet strength
alas Dean informed us a while ago that it is no longer available
is this still the case?
i had purchased HAKUSAN from Aiko's a long time ago and loved it
so when they were going out of business last spring
i had my son (who lives in Chicago) go in and get me some .
i sent him an old catalog page to show them, so he would get the right paper.
well ! they had a great laugh about that old page and the price
as it was probably from the mid eighties.
i got the last of the hakusan they had.
its a very bright white, smooth on one side and a little rough on the other .
lately i ordered a roll of "Stonehenge RISING" which is cream colored and pretty thick,
i dont use a press but it works great with my baren and i can print a block 40" as its 42" wide
i really prefer the rolls for the leeway for printing very large blocks
i got this from Daniel Smith
they have good selection and good sales
has anyone ever gotten paper from David Sander -wood engraver/teacher-chicago area?
he used to have a paper he called Sanderson which was a roll but only about 30"
it was a good midweight cream colored paper
i have not heard from him in years , is he still out there ?
another reason for liking the rolls is that they can be suspended from the ceiling
on a dowel for easy cutting and out of the way storage
paper thoughts from Gillyin in maine
Message 5
From: cjchapel # casco.net
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:43:48 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39099] Re: paper... our love and hate relationships
Send Message: To this poster
I have noticed that the most creative of my acquaintances have the
most cluttered studios. I just don't trust a studio that looks like a
laboratory. I do draw the line at having the clutter to the point of
not being able to find what I want and I never like waste or
destruction, as in lids left off or brushes unattended. I mean I do
have my limits. I always clean the brayer first. LOL
C. Chapel
You are invited to visit my web site at: www.carolchapel.com
most cluttered studios. I just don't trust a studio that looks like a
laboratory. I do draw the line at having the clutter to the point of
not being able to find what I want and I never like waste or
destruction, as in lids left off or brushes unattended. I mean I do
have my limits. I always clean the brayer first. LOL
C. Chapel
You are invited to visit my web site at: www.carolchapel.com
Message 6
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:56:33 GMT
Subject: [Baren 39100] paper and ink again
Send Message: To this poster
This is great info you are sending....I am excited to work at getting this together in some form of a usable database.
I think I will do it by paper type.
Send more info.... duplicates are fine as everyone has some little trick others don't know.
I will also raid the paper companies info but what artists have to say is better as we are the end users and each one has a different technique.
My best
Barbara
I think I will do it by paper type.
Send more info.... duplicates are fine as everyone has some little trick others don't know.
I will also raid the paper companies info but what artists have to say is better as we are the end users and each one has a different technique.
My best
Barbara