Today's postings
- [Baren 38374] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Annie Bissett)
- [Baren 38375] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Arthur Bacon)
- [Baren 38376] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4741 (Mar 13, 2009) (Marilynn Smith)
- [Baren 38377] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (David Harrison)
- [Baren 38378] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Marissa)
- [Baren 38379] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (David Harrison)
- [Baren 38380] Drawing (Gayle Wohlken)
- [Baren 38381] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4741 (Mar 13, 2009) (Elizabeth Nielsen)
- [Baren 38382] drawing (Rosposfe # aol.com)
- [Baren 38383] Re: does anyone draw anymore? (Graham Scholes)
- [Baren 38384] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4740 (Mar 13, 2009) (Sharri LaPierre)
- [Baren 38385] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4740 (Mar 13, 2009) sharri (aqua4tis # aol.com)
- [Baren 38386] RE: the appropriation thing was it ("Maria Arango")
Message 1
From: Annie Bissett
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:39:12 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38374] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
Hi everyone,
I understand that in her original post Maria was lamenting unmediated
photo collage prints, not the using of photo reference, but we've
gotten onto the topic of drawing and "purity" of art so I wanted to
mention this video clip (5 minutes) in which cartoonist Alison
Bechdel describes her drawing process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumLU3UpcGY&feature=related
It's a lot like my process. Briefly, if you don't want to watch the
video, she does a really rough thumbnail sketch and then does
successive refinements of that sketch using tracing paper over her
thumbnail plus reference from the internet. Not that she necessarily
traces the reference, but she uses the reference to add convincing
details to her imagined scene. She also takes photos of herself in
various poses to help with anatomy and perspective. Then she brings
her final drawing into the computer where she can add color and FIX
MISTAKES (gotta love that!). In my case, I also use the computer to
scale my drawing to the proper size for my block once I'm ready to
make a hanshita.
I think the idea that there's a "pure" way to make art and then a
bunch of "cheating" ways to make art is a problem, given that most
professionals I know work this way, doing extensive research in order
to convincingly render things that aren't in front of them in the
studio -- things like elephants or the Eiffel Tower or... well, you
know, Pilgrims.
Annie
I understand that in her original post Maria was lamenting unmediated
photo collage prints, not the using of photo reference, but we've
gotten onto the topic of drawing and "purity" of art so I wanted to
mention this video clip (5 minutes) in which cartoonist Alison
Bechdel describes her drawing process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumLU3UpcGY&feature=related
It's a lot like my process. Briefly, if you don't want to watch the
video, she does a really rough thumbnail sketch and then does
successive refinements of that sketch using tracing paper over her
thumbnail plus reference from the internet. Not that she necessarily
traces the reference, but she uses the reference to add convincing
details to her imagined scene. She also takes photos of herself in
various poses to help with anatomy and perspective. Then she brings
her final drawing into the computer where she can add color and FIX
MISTAKES (gotta love that!). In my case, I also use the computer to
scale my drawing to the proper size for my block once I'm ready to
make a hanshita.
I think the idea that there's a "pure" way to make art and then a
bunch of "cheating" ways to make art is a problem, given that most
professionals I know work this way, doing extensive research in order
to convincingly render things that aren't in front of them in the
studio -- things like elephants or the Eiffel Tower or... well, you
know, Pilgrims.
Annie
Message 2
From: Arthur Bacon
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:40:16 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38375] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
...speaking of technology and art.... pencils and legal pads vs
computers....speaking as a photographer...digital versus wet.....you know,
strange as it might seem to young people, never once, in forty years did one
of my enlargers just dissolve, disintegrate, disappear, CRASH while I was in
the middle of making a print! Can you believe that! Inexorably, this
possibility (fear) has an effect on our art-making. Incidentally, I have
lost entire chapters of books and blocks of plays when my computer would
crash. Nice.
ciao, Arturo
Oscar Bearinger
> Let's take this to another art form. Is a poet any less of a poet if they
>> use a computer rather than a pencil?
>>
>
> ah Tim
> as a poet myself, this is the question I was trying to dodge. it is a very
> important question to me. the change in language, syntax, grammar since the
> dawn of the cybernetic age in 1947 is phenomenal....is it fundamental?
>
> just one small aspect of this in my own awareness: email has caused a
> change in how people (at a distance, not face-to-face) speak to each other.
> I am very troubled by this. I have found no one who agrees with me. I know
> that thinking through and answering this question, is not possible in an
> email exchange (ie it would takes pages, and days, and some silence).
>
> another example: the very function of writing on a monitor, changes what
> comes out of the body of the person writing.
>
> I do not want to disturb or offend anyone, however, I cannot apologise if I
> am being obscure. these are important and valuable questions, Tim.
>
> great conversation, folks
> Oscar
>
>
> oh, by the way, Tim, they say you need to give 110% at work (if you want to
> be a real man!) :o)
computers....speaking as a photographer...digital versus wet.....you know,
strange as it might seem to young people, never once, in forty years did one
of my enlargers just dissolve, disintegrate, disappear, CRASH while I was in
the middle of making a print! Can you believe that! Inexorably, this
possibility (fear) has an effect on our art-making. Incidentally, I have
lost entire chapters of books and blocks of plays when my computer would
crash. Nice.
ciao, Arturo
Oscar Bearinger
> Let's take this to another art form. Is a poet any less of a poet if they
>> use a computer rather than a pencil?
>>
>
> ah Tim
> as a poet myself, this is the question I was trying to dodge. it is a very
> important question to me. the change in language, syntax, grammar since the
> dawn of the cybernetic age in 1947 is phenomenal....is it fundamental?
>
> just one small aspect of this in my own awareness: email has caused a
> change in how people (at a distance, not face-to-face) speak to each other.
> I am very troubled by this. I have found no one who agrees with me. I know
> that thinking through and answering this question, is not possible in an
> email exchange (ie it would takes pages, and days, and some silence).
>
> another example: the very function of writing on a monitor, changes what
> comes out of the body of the person writing.
>
> I do not want to disturb or offend anyone, however, I cannot apologise if I
> am being obscure. these are important and valuable questions, Tim.
>
> great conversation, folks
> Oscar
>
>
> oh, by the way, Tim, they say you need to give 110% at work (if you want to
> be a real man!) :o)
Message 3
From: Marilynn Smith
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:53:04 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38376] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4741 (Mar 13, 2009)
Send Message: To this poster
"Where would this leave David Bull, that uses photos from his journeys
as the basis for woodblock prints? And I don't believe that the
argument that "they are woodcuts" and they "have your hand solidly in
it" counts at all: where does that leave someone like Mike Lyon and
his large woodcuts produced from photos using a computer for color
separation and a router for carving?"
Can't help jumping in here. When David Bull or Mike Lyon used photos
for their work they used photos they took themselves. With all the
art background, training and skill behind them they are using their
artists eyes to capture the image themselves. This is vastly
different from a person who takes other peoples work and uses it to
create something. Have you ever taken a photo that speaks of more than
just being a picture??? I have. One in particular stands out in my
mind. Our oldest grandson and my husband were standing looking out
over the water with their backs to me and I took their photo. It is
more than just a photo because you can truly see that they are
communicating with one another, that puts soul into the picture.
Also, many art schools recognize photography as an art form.
This discussion did not start with rather or not using modern
technology as a tool was wrong. The question posed, if I got it
right, was does any one draw any more. And further these people are
taking other peoples art and pasting it together and calling in their
own. Most certainly neither Dave or Mike are doing this. They are
using tools to make their own stuff.
Marilynn
as the basis for woodblock prints? And I don't believe that the
argument that "they are woodcuts" and they "have your hand solidly in
it" counts at all: where does that leave someone like Mike Lyon and
his large woodcuts produced from photos using a computer for color
separation and a router for carving?"
Can't help jumping in here. When David Bull or Mike Lyon used photos
for their work they used photos they took themselves. With all the
art background, training and skill behind them they are using their
artists eyes to capture the image themselves. This is vastly
different from a person who takes other peoples work and uses it to
create something. Have you ever taken a photo that speaks of more than
just being a picture??? I have. One in particular stands out in my
mind. Our oldest grandson and my husband were standing looking out
over the water with their backs to me and I took their photo. It is
more than just a photo because you can truly see that they are
communicating with one another, that puts soul into the picture.
Also, many art schools recognize photography as an art form.
This discussion did not start with rather or not using modern
technology as a tool was wrong. The question posed, if I got it
right, was does any one draw any more. And further these people are
taking other peoples art and pasting it together and calling in their
own. Most certainly neither Dave or Mike are doing this. They are
using tools to make their own stuff.
Marilynn
Message 4
From: David Harrison
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:36:12 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38377] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
Graham Scholes wrote:
> The problem with a computer as a tool it does not demand discipline.
> It is a do and undo tool with no consequences as required by drawing
> skills.
Absolutely incorrect. Try a 3d render sometime if you want a lesson in
exactitude. Or a high-spec book layout. Or any one of a multitude of other
tasks that would prove you wrong in a second.
Decry the tool as far as you just have and you insult the worker. Offense taken.
David H
> The problem with a computer as a tool it does not demand discipline.
> It is a do and undo tool with no consequences as required by drawing
> skills.
Absolutely incorrect. Try a 3d render sometime if you want a lesson in
exactitude. Or a high-spec book layout. Or any one of a multitude of other
tasks that would prove you wrong in a second.
Decry the tool as far as you just have and you insult the worker. Offense taken.
David H
Message 5
From: Marissa
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:43:51 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38378] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
David,
All I know is that I can draw on a pad of paper quite well but can't draw on
a tablet to save my life! So I can't help but respect the medium!
Some people can draw very well and are by most accounts bad artists. While
others aren't very good at drawing yet are fabulous artists. I hate it when
people box people into what an artist should be and what is and isn't art.
Sure, there is a ton of bad digital art out there right now but the same
could be said for everything else.
All I know is that I can draw on a pad of paper quite well but can't draw on
a tablet to save my life! So I can't help but respect the medium!
Some people can draw very well and are by most accounts bad artists. While
others aren't very good at drawing yet are fabulous artists. I hate it when
people box people into what an artist should be and what is and isn't art.
Sure, there is a ton of bad digital art out there right now but the same
could be said for everything else.
Message 6
From: David Harrison
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:05:00 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38379] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
Marissa,
I quite agree with you. And as you say it's a matter of being comfortable with
your chosen medium, be it paper, tablet or something else entirely.
I just profoundly disagree with the bottomless ignorance of the digital medium
demonstrated by Mr Scholes. A physical medium enforces no discipline in and of
itself -- it's just matter until there is imposed a cultural, personal and
professional demand on the part of the artist and audience.
The medium itself is just raw stuff -- pigment, binder, support, application
tool -- until we want to see it used for something more profound than sitting
around in jars and rolls. *Then* the skill starts. Exactly the same with a
computer. Any numptie can draw squiggles in Photoshop or Painter, but the same
holds true for pencil and paper. Anyone can do it, as well or as badly as they
like and are able. That is a property of the person, not the medium.
As you say, there's a lot of bad digital art. But there's a heck of a lot of
very, very good work produced too. The skill required to produce it is
considerable.
I quite agree with you. And as you say it's a matter of being comfortable with
your chosen medium, be it paper, tablet or something else entirely.
I just profoundly disagree with the bottomless ignorance of the digital medium
demonstrated by Mr Scholes. A physical medium enforces no discipline in and of
itself -- it's just matter until there is imposed a cultural, personal and
professional demand on the part of the artist and audience.
The medium itself is just raw stuff -- pigment, binder, support, application
tool -- until we want to see it used for something more profound than sitting
around in jars and rolls. *Then* the skill starts. Exactly the same with a
computer. Any numptie can draw squiggles in Photoshop or Painter, but the same
holds true for pencil and paper. Anyone can do it, as well or as badly as they
like and are able. That is a property of the person, not the medium.
As you say, there's a lot of bad digital art. But there's a heck of a lot of
very, very good work produced too. The skill required to produce it is
considerable.
Message 7
From: Gayle Wohlken
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:18:23 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38380] Drawing
Send Message: To this poster
I draw, too, but I know what David Harrison is talking about. It
requires a great deal of skill using Photoshop to create something
from a vision. I had to come up with a design for a logo, and had no
problem with my woodcut or my idea, but when it came to scanning it,
and adding the rest of the design which had to be precise -- and I
have absolutely no skill in my drawing ability for preciseness (we had
to use drawing tools for that in design class at Cooper School of Art
and I couldn't even use those correctly I was so bad at it) -- it took
several people skilled in Photoshop to talk me through the processes I
needed to complete the project. I did it and it looked very good, but
what I went through made me respect what Photoshop-literate artists
can do.
~Gayle
requires a great deal of skill using Photoshop to create something
from a vision. I had to come up with a design for a logo, and had no
problem with my woodcut or my idea, but when it came to scanning it,
and adding the rest of the design which had to be precise -- and I
have absolutely no skill in my drawing ability for preciseness (we had
to use drawing tools for that in design class at Cooper School of Art
and I couldn't even use those correctly I was so bad at it) -- it took
several people skilled in Photoshop to talk me through the processes I
needed to complete the project. I did it and it looked very good, but
what I went through made me respect what Photoshop-literate artists
can do.
~Gayle
Message 8
From: Elizabeth Nielsen
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:36:25 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38381] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4741 (Mar 13, 2009)
Send Message: To this poster
Who is planning to be at SGC in Chicago this year? (Apologies if this has
already come up in the forum, but it's getting close to the date so most
people should know by sure for now if they'll be there.)
I'm deliriously happy to be able to go for the first time since... the one
in DC. Three, four years ago?
Is there any interest in a Baren Digest meetup?
best,
-liz-
already come up in the forum, but it's getting close to the date so most
people should know by sure for now if they'll be there.)
I'm deliriously happy to be able to go for the first time since... the one
in DC. Three, four years ago?
Is there any interest in a Baren Digest meetup?
best,
-liz-
Message 9
From: Rosposfe # aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:34:38 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38382] drawing
Send Message: To this poster
I went to a small liberal arts college in New England and the art
department was very heavy on theory and criticism and very light on technique...the
idea was to teach us how to think about art and what constitutes good or
interesting or vital works. It was assumed that the techniques we needed we
would eventually pick up on our own. Consequently, I am a much better art critic
than I am an artist and still miss that I lack a strong foundation in color
and composition and drawing.
In contrast, there's a private, realist art school in Florence that
teaches in the traditional manner; drawing from plaster casts, grinding your own
pigments, copying old masters, etc. and I can vouch that at their yearly student
exhibits it is clear that the students learn very well the art of drawing,
painting and sculpting. But as Maria, et.al. lamented speaking of
collage-type/computer downloaded content even here the lack of interesting work among all
the fine draughtmanship and painting was remarkable.
A good artist should be able to make exciting work from whatever they have
on hand and while I wish I drew better than I do/I have no issues with
appropriated images/content as long as the finished work is meaningful. We live in
a throwaway society bombarded, MTV style, by images and snippets of stolen
culture in every way. Some art should engage this/use it/challenge it/ make us
think about it.
And when in 100-200 years some one looks back on this era, I suppose one
of the hallmarks of Art of the early 21st century will be the use,
collage-style of multiple disparate elements/graffiti/type/images as our daily vocabulary
of visual language.
Andrew Stone
rospobio.blogspot.com
department was very heavy on theory and criticism and very light on technique...the
idea was to teach us how to think about art and what constitutes good or
interesting or vital works. It was assumed that the techniques we needed we
would eventually pick up on our own. Consequently, I am a much better art critic
than I am an artist and still miss that I lack a strong foundation in color
and composition and drawing.
In contrast, there's a private, realist art school in Florence that
teaches in the traditional manner; drawing from plaster casts, grinding your own
pigments, copying old masters, etc. and I can vouch that at their yearly student
exhibits it is clear that the students learn very well the art of drawing,
painting and sculpting. But as Maria, et.al. lamented speaking of
collage-type/computer downloaded content even here the lack of interesting work among all
the fine draughtmanship and painting was remarkable.
A good artist should be able to make exciting work from whatever they have
on hand and while I wish I drew better than I do/I have no issues with
appropriated images/content as long as the finished work is meaningful. We live in
a throwaway society bombarded, MTV style, by images and snippets of stolen
culture in every way. Some art should engage this/use it/challenge it/ make us
think about it.
And when in 100-200 years some one looks back on this era, I suppose one
of the hallmarks of Art of the early 21st century will be the use,
collage-style of multiple disparate elements/graffiti/type/images as our daily vocabulary
of visual language.
Andrew Stone
rospobio.blogspot.com
Message 10
From: Graham Scholes
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:32:24 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38383] Re: does anyone draw anymore?
Send Message: To this poster
David Harrison wrote:
> Absolutely incorrect. Try a 3d render sometime if you want a lesson
> in exactitude. Or a high-spec book layout. Or any one of a multitude
> of other tasks that would prove you wrong in a second.
>
Sorry to bust your balloon David.... I have done 3D stuff using my
Wacom tablet ...... I have been using Mac computers since 1985. I
do not find them the challenge as you obviously do. They sure have
never improved my drawing skills ... and that is my bottom line.
> Decry the tool as far as you just have and you insult the worker.
> Offense taken.
> I just profoundly disagree with the bottomless ignorance of the
> digital medium demonstrated by Mr Scholes.
I have simply expressed my 2˘ worth.... I suggest if you don’t find my
experience and knowledge matching yours, that you don’t read my posts.
ummmm...I never personal insulted anyone as you have done twice now.
Here is a heads up..... My name is Graham ... My fathers name was
Mr. Scholes (
Message 11
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:49:05 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38384] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4740 (Mar 13, 2009)
Send Message: To this poster
Ahh, but Marilynn, you missed what I said: "they" (the drawings on
the wall) were not art. Believe me, you would have agreed!
One place we tend to get hung up is thinking that drawing can only be
done with a pencil, charcoal, or conté crayon. But, drawing can be
done with various media, so don't limit yourself so much ;-) I took
an upper division drawing course where we never used any one of the
three media mentioned - the entire semester was spent on various types
of compositions...
It takes the principles and elements of design to make a satisfying
composition, whether it is photo-realism, abstraction or non-
objective. And when they are done well, they are art, and when not
done well, then they are only a drawing, a painting, a collage, etc.
There is a place for learning technique and one need not worry about
making great art when learning a new skill - so if they copy a master
painting, drawing, or a calendar, so what? (As long as they don't then
try to sell it as their original work! - which some do - shame
shame.) Once they learn how to handle the medium, then they can go on
a learn how to make art with it.
That's my 2 cents worth,
Sharri
the wall) were not art. Believe me, you would have agreed!
One place we tend to get hung up is thinking that drawing can only be
done with a pencil, charcoal, or conté crayon. But, drawing can be
done with various media, so don't limit yourself so much ;-) I took
an upper division drawing course where we never used any one of the
three media mentioned - the entire semester was spent on various types
of compositions...
It takes the principles and elements of design to make a satisfying
composition, whether it is photo-realism, abstraction or non-
objective. And when they are done well, they are art, and when not
done well, then they are only a drawing, a painting, a collage, etc.
There is a place for learning technique and one need not worry about
making great art when learning a new skill - so if they copy a master
painting, drawing, or a calendar, so what? (As long as they don't then
try to sell it as their original work! - which some do - shame
shame.) Once they learn how to handle the medium, then they can go on
a learn how to make art with it.
That's my 2 cents worth,
Sharri
Message 12
From: aqua4tis # aol.com
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:36:36 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38385] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V46 #4740 (Mar 13, 2009) sharri
Send Message: To this poster
im curious sharri. what mediums did you use and what did these compositions consist of? it sounds very interesting
>I took an upper division drawing course where we never used any one of the three media mentioned - the entire semester was spent on various types of compositions...
>I took an upper division drawing course where we never used any one of the three media mentioned - the entire semester was spent on various types of compositions...
Message 13
From: "Maria Arango"
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:37:42 GMT
Subject: [Baren 38386] RE: the appropriation thing was it
Send Message: To this poster
> There is a place for learning technique and one need not worry about
> making great art when learning a new skill - so if they copy a master
> painting, drawing, or a calendar, so what? (As long as they don't then
> try to sell it as their original work! - which some do - shame
> shame.)
This was precisely my initial objection!
These printmakers in a national show (I do wish I could find it again) were
using other people's imagery, copyrighted or not, copying it exactly via
photo-transfers, collaging together, signing and saying: "I made that!"
I can hardly think that any of the advocates of appropriation would agree to
have me take, say, a few of the images from Baren exchanges and putting
together some nice woodblock-collages to sell in my booth under my 1000
Woodcuts banner. Or maybe my road to 1000 woodcuts just got that much
easier? How many exchange prints do we have online? Just kidding, just
kidding...
Maria
O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O
Maria Arango
http://1000woodcuts.com
http://artfestivalguide.info
O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O
> making great art when learning a new skill - so if they copy a master
> painting, drawing, or a calendar, so what? (As long as they don't then
> try to sell it as their original work! - which some do - shame
> shame.)
This was precisely my initial objection!
These printmakers in a national show (I do wish I could find it again) were
using other people's imagery, copyrighted or not, copying it exactly via
photo-transfers, collaging together, signing and saying: "I made that!"
I can hardly think that any of the advocates of appropriation would agree to
have me take, say, a few of the images from Baren exchanges and putting
together some nice woodblock-collages to sell in my booth under my 1000
Woodcuts banner. Or maybe my road to 1000 woodcuts just got that much
easier? How many exchange prints do we have online? Just kidding, just
kidding...
Maria
O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O
Maria Arango
http://1000woodcuts.com
http://artfestivalguide.info
O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O