Today's postings
- [Baren 36808] Denture adhesive (Lee Churchill)
- [Baren 36809] ex#37 , adhesives , big fish print ("bobcatpath # 207me.com")
- [Baren 36810] Re: adhesives/roll call (Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com)
- [Baren 36811] Re: Oil-based inks and paper - technical question ("Amie Roman")
- [Baren 36812] Re: Oil-based inks and paper - technical question (Charles Morgan)
- [Baren 36813] Oil-based inks and paper - technical question (ArtSpotiB # aol.com)
- [Baren 36814] Ink for grabs (Bill Joel)
- [Baren 36815] adhesive (cucamongie # aol.com)
Message 1
From: Lee Churchill
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:48:25 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36808] Denture adhesive
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Hi...
Don't know whether it's just me but denture adhesive doesn't seem like a great plan for a long lasting print. Having seen works destroyed by the adhesives seeping through from the verso I'd be careful about using these products.
Checking online the little I could find about the composition of denture adhesive (not all powders mind you) lists everything from Menthol to mineral oil as components, for example:
http://www.householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/prodtree?prodcat=Personal+Care&purpose=Oral+Hygiene
- most likely the mystery is due to the proprietary nature of the products and the protection of the patents. I've always found that if I can't find out what is in something it's not usually in my best interest to use it for making art.
I've heard that you can get precooked starch powders that purport to do the same job, and at least those you know what is in them...
On a tired Tuesday morning,
Lee
The creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act. (Marcel Duchamp)
Many printmakers (including me) are using powdered denture adhesive for Chine colle, etc. with great success. A print conference several years ago demonstrated it, and its' popularity has taken off.
Just use water to spritz the sheet to glue up, dust it with the adhesive, and glue it down. It is repositionable for a short time, pressure through a press or baren will seal and adhere it. I have had no trouble with wrinkles or loss of adhesion.
Hope it is many years before I have to sprinkle it on my choppers, but it has a place of honor in the studio. To me, it beats methyl cellulose, my old standby.
Give it a try.
Preston Lawing
Preston B. Lawing
Chair, Department of Art and Design
Saint Mary's University of Minnesota
700 Terrace Heights
#1421
Winona, MN 55987
(507) 457-1701
plawing#smumn.edu
Don't know whether it's just me but denture adhesive doesn't seem like a great plan for a long lasting print. Having seen works destroyed by the adhesives seeping through from the verso I'd be careful about using these products.
Checking online the little I could find about the composition of denture adhesive (not all powders mind you) lists everything from Menthol to mineral oil as components, for example:
http://www.householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/prodtree?prodcat=Personal+Care&purpose=Oral+Hygiene
- most likely the mystery is due to the proprietary nature of the products and the protection of the patents. I've always found that if I can't find out what is in something it's not usually in my best interest to use it for making art.
I've heard that you can get precooked starch powders that purport to do the same job, and at least those you know what is in them...
On a tired Tuesday morning,
Lee
The creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act. (Marcel Duchamp)
Many printmakers (including me) are using powdered denture adhesive for Chine colle, etc. with great success. A print conference several years ago demonstrated it, and its' popularity has taken off.
Just use water to spritz the sheet to glue up, dust it with the adhesive, and glue it down. It is repositionable for a short time, pressure through a press or baren will seal and adhere it. I have had no trouble with wrinkles or loss of adhesion.
Hope it is many years before I have to sprinkle it on my choppers, but it has a place of honor in the studio. To me, it beats methyl cellulose, my old standby.
Give it a try.
Preston Lawing
Preston B. Lawing
Chair, Department of Art and Design
Saint Mary's University of Minnesota
700 Terrace Heights
#1421
Winona, MN 55987
(507) 457-1701
plawing#smumn.edu
Message 2
From: "bobcatpath # 207me.com"
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:36:44 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36809] ex#37 , adhesives , big fish print
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hello Bareners
i received my packet of 37/37a yesterday and had a grand time first
reading about each
print then looking at them . they will stand many viewings and i look
forward to sharing
them with my artists friends and the printmaking classes at UMaine Machias
thank you so much- Maria and all who took part -a wonderful memorial for
Wanda
thank you to everyone who responded so far on adhesives Renee, Claudia ,
Barbara , Maria
and Preston i do now feel informed and enlightened !
and ready to try a foam roller with PVA or
yikes ! denture adhesives-
all suggestions better than the spray junk i have used
i will probably try them all
and to Jason Van dusen a big WOW i love your big fish print thanks for
putting it back
up again i'm glad i did not miss seeing it and now have your site saved for
future
reference
i really enjoy art that shows larger than life animals as it seems so hard
for many
people to bring them into any kind of prospective and CARE about them
simply because they cant SEE them
Jason you have inspired me to try a similar piece for my region
as we have a problem of no more Atlantic Salmon (or ground fish)
i recently did a 18 x 24 broadside to depict what it would look like if we
put an LNG
plant and allow big tankers thru the foggiest,highest tides and biggest
whirlpool passage
in the east- Head Harbor Passage in EASTPORT/PERRY MAINE-its on 'flickr'
somewhere-
but i can never find it ;-)
Gilly
i received my packet of 37/37a yesterday and had a grand time first
reading about each
print then looking at them . they will stand many viewings and i look
forward to sharing
them with my artists friends and the printmaking classes at UMaine Machias
thank you so much- Maria and all who took part -a wonderful memorial for
Wanda
thank you to everyone who responded so far on adhesives Renee, Claudia ,
Barbara , Maria
and Preston i do now feel informed and enlightened !
and ready to try a foam roller with PVA or
yikes ! denture adhesives-
all suggestions better than the spray junk i have used
i will probably try them all
and to Jason Van dusen a big WOW i love your big fish print thanks for
putting it back
up again i'm glad i did not miss seeing it and now have your site saved for
future
reference
i really enjoy art that shows larger than life animals as it seems so hard
for many
people to bring them into any kind of prospective and CARE about them
simply because they cant SEE them
Jason you have inspired me to try a similar piece for my region
as we have a problem of no more Atlantic Salmon (or ground fish)
i recently did a 18 x 24 broadside to depict what it would look like if we
put an LNG
plant and allow big tankers thru the foggiest,highest tides and biggest
whirlpool passage
in the east- Head Harbor Passage in EASTPORT/PERRY MAINE-its on 'flickr'
somewhere-
but i can never find it ;-)
Gilly
Message 3
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:41:03 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36810] Re: adhesives/roll call
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Benny,
I also replied to your first email both private reply and via Baren....
JUlio
I also replied to your first email both private reply and via Baren....
JUlio
Message 4
From: "Amie Roman"
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:46:20 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36811] Re: Oil-based inks and paper - technical question
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Greetings, fellow Baren-ers, and I apologize for any possible duplication,
but there was a question about oil-based inks on the Wet Canvas Printmaking
forum that doesn't seem to be getting much response, so I thought I'd try
here, just in case one of you might have a suggestion.
"My question relates to use of oil based media which contain siccative oils
like linseed, poppy, walnut, safflower,etc.; the so-called "drying" oils.
My inquiries and readings suggest that intrustion of these oils into paper
(or other) supports and their subsequent oxidation will result in the
eventual degradation of the paper due to the brittleness produced by thes
chemical changes.
I get the impression this does not seem to be a concern among printmakers.
First, is that an erroneous impression. And if not, why is this not a
concern."
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I've never even considered it; I
mean, so many printmakers have used oil-based inks for so long, that it
never crossed my mind, yet it's a good question. Is there something special
about the make up of oil-based printing inks that prevents this problem, and
if so, what would it be?
Thank you for indulging my curiosity!
Cheers
Amie Roman
--
http://www.amieroman.ca
http://burnishings.blogspot.com
http://www.squidoo.com/allaboutprintmaking
but there was a question about oil-based inks on the Wet Canvas Printmaking
forum that doesn't seem to be getting much response, so I thought I'd try
here, just in case one of you might have a suggestion.
"My question relates to use of oil based media which contain siccative oils
like linseed, poppy, walnut, safflower,etc.; the so-called "drying" oils.
My inquiries and readings suggest that intrustion of these oils into paper
(or other) supports and their subsequent oxidation will result in the
eventual degradation of the paper due to the brittleness produced by thes
chemical changes.
I get the impression this does not seem to be a concern among printmakers.
First, is that an erroneous impression. And if not, why is this not a
concern."
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I've never even considered it; I
mean, so many printmakers have used oil-based inks for so long, that it
never crossed my mind, yet it's a good question. Is there something special
about the make up of oil-based printing inks that prevents this problem, and
if so, what would it be?
Thank you for indulging my curiosity!
Cheers
Amie Roman
--
http://www.amieroman.ca
http://burnishings.blogspot.com
http://www.squidoo.com/allaboutprintmaking
Message 5
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:59:09 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36812] Re: Oil-based inks and paper - technical question
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I would be very curious to know where you got your information about the alleged degradation of paper (and other) support media as the result of applying siccative oils.
We have many examples of very old prints made with linseed oil based inks, and to my knowledge, these prints stand up very well indeed. Many of the etching inks were (and are) just burnt plate oil with added pigment ... no peculiar additives or preservatives. And of course there is all that canvas covered with oil based paints, and no sign of degradation due to the paint, at least not that I have read.
Certainly if the paper is being flexed, then the stiffness of the dried oil would lead to breaking of the paper fibers. But if the paper is maintained in a flat condition, unflexed, then the mere stiffness of the dried oil should not pose a problem.
Again, if you could post the references for the suggested degradation, it might be possible to make more educated comment.
Cheers ...... Charles
We have many examples of very old prints made with linseed oil based inks, and to my knowledge, these prints stand up very well indeed. Many of the etching inks were (and are) just burnt plate oil with added pigment ... no peculiar additives or preservatives. And of course there is all that canvas covered with oil based paints, and no sign of degradation due to the paint, at least not that I have read.
Certainly if the paper is being flexed, then the stiffness of the dried oil would lead to breaking of the paper fibers. But if the paper is maintained in a flat condition, unflexed, then the mere stiffness of the dried oil should not pose a problem.
Again, if you could post the references for the suggested degradation, it might be possible to make more educated comment.
Cheers ...... Charles
Message 6
From: ArtSpotiB # aol.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:02:16 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36813] Oil-based inks and paper - technical question
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Hi All.
The question of longevity of prints is a wonderful one... could we have it as
a discussion here for a bit?
I hail from many generations of artists. It is my impression that when the
Dada school of thought came in, archival soundness became a lesser issue. This
freedom gave art a burst of energy that continues to this day. My Mother, an
accomplished artist of some repute, chose to follow this freedom. As a result I
am already seeing some of her work deteriorate. Rich and innovative as it is,
this grieves me. Perhaps in reaction, I choose to make my work for the longer
term.
I think that there's room for everyone, ranging from those who are concerned
with the longlastingness of their work to those who really don't care.
Certainly the pleasure of creating is primary in our hearts. What about the rest of
it?
One issue is how to present one's work so that those who acquire it are aware
of what they have in their collections. "Glicee" prints fall into this
category. It's right up with "limited editions" as a hot topic for the field.
Unlike printmakers' bare paper, oil painters seal their canvases with gesso.
(Traditionally another layer, that of rabbit skin glue, was additional barrier
from the rot of oils.) Conversations with conservators brings interesting
commentaries regarding the inevitable choice of which works will be conserved vs.
financial considerations when it comes to relining canvases.That is a process
where the paint surface is carefully transferred to another support.
Certainly rot is BIG issue here, with traditions of discoloration and brittleness
looming large regarding siccatives as well. Acrylics bring their own issues;
mostly that of hairline cracks. Ralph Mayer's "The Artists Handbook" is great
reading regarding this topic.
So, I'm curious as to what everyone on this listserve has decided to do
regarding the longevity of their prints. Like I said, it's all good to me... plenty
of room for everyone. On a personal level, how long do you think that YOUR
work will last and how important is it for you? What do you tell clients when
they purchase your work? Or not? Do you think that they care? Or does it have
to do with where the work is sold?
Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba in studio
"It is neither wealth nor splendor, but tranquility and
occupation, which give happiness."
--Thomas Jefferson
The question of longevity of prints is a wonderful one... could we have it as
a discussion here for a bit?
I hail from many generations of artists. It is my impression that when the
Dada school of thought came in, archival soundness became a lesser issue. This
freedom gave art a burst of energy that continues to this day. My Mother, an
accomplished artist of some repute, chose to follow this freedom. As a result I
am already seeing some of her work deteriorate. Rich and innovative as it is,
this grieves me. Perhaps in reaction, I choose to make my work for the longer
term.
I think that there's room for everyone, ranging from those who are concerned
with the longlastingness of their work to those who really don't care.
Certainly the pleasure of creating is primary in our hearts. What about the rest of
it?
One issue is how to present one's work so that those who acquire it are aware
of what they have in their collections. "Glicee" prints fall into this
category. It's right up with "limited editions" as a hot topic for the field.
Unlike printmakers' bare paper, oil painters seal their canvases with gesso.
(Traditionally another layer, that of rabbit skin glue, was additional barrier
from the rot of oils.) Conversations with conservators brings interesting
commentaries regarding the inevitable choice of which works will be conserved vs.
financial considerations when it comes to relining canvases.That is a process
where the paint surface is carefully transferred to another support.
Certainly rot is BIG issue here, with traditions of discoloration and brittleness
looming large regarding siccatives as well. Acrylics bring their own issues;
mostly that of hairline cracks. Ralph Mayer's "The Artists Handbook" is great
reading regarding this topic.
So, I'm curious as to what everyone on this listserve has decided to do
regarding the longevity of their prints. Like I said, it's all good to me... plenty
of room for everyone. On a personal level, how long do you think that YOUR
work will last and how important is it for you? What do you tell clients when
they purchase your work? Or not? Do you think that they care? Or does it have
to do with where the work is sold?
Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba in studio
"It is neither wealth nor splendor, but tranquility and
occupation, which give happiness."
--Thomas Jefferson
Message 7
From: Bill Joel
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:05:38 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36814] Ink for grabs
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Greetings,
Cleaning up the other day I found a full tube of white oil-based
woodblock ink. Just contact me offline and I can send it to the first
one who reponds.
- Bill
Cleaning up the other day I found a full tube of white oil-based
woodblock ink. Just contact me offline and I can send it to the first
one who reponds.
- Bill
Message 8
From: cucamongie # aol.com
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:03:13 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36815] adhesive
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Preston, what is the advantage that you have found of the denture adhesive over the methyl cellulose?
Though I like the concept, what I would be concerned about is the archivalness (or lack of) of the denture stuff.
any info on this?
Sarah