Today's postings
- [Baren 36542] Re: chinese cutting (ArtSpotiB # aol.com)
- [Baren 36543] Re: chinese cutting (Dave Bull)
- [Baren 36544] Blood, Tears and, wait a minute, no OOPS! (ArtSpotiB # aol.com)
- [Baren 36545] chinese cutting without band-aid possible ("Eva Pietzcker")
Message 1
From: ArtSpotiB # aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:11:12 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36542] Re: chinese cutting
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Hello.
Eva, thanks for having that site that so many of us enjoyed seeing.
Most folks know, at least intellectually if not in good practice, that dull
tools are the largest factor in being injured with blades. Force really isn't a
good substitute for sharp.
That said, is there some particular reason that the cutter didn't revolve the
wood, instead having the blade headed in the fleshy direction? The photo was
a bit unnerving. I know that I do my best to avoid risk, seeing as how my
skills aren't up to "master". Just one slip of that particular position could mean
sliced tendon.
Thanks for your comment.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba in Oakland, CA.
Underground nuclear testing, defoliation of the rain forests, toxic waste
... Let's put it this way: if the world were a big apartment, we wouldn't
get our deposit back. -John Ross
Eva, thanks for having that site that so many of us enjoyed seeing.
Most folks know, at least intellectually if not in good practice, that dull
tools are the largest factor in being injured with blades. Force really isn't a
good substitute for sharp.
That said, is there some particular reason that the cutter didn't revolve the
wood, instead having the blade headed in the fleshy direction? The photo was
a bit unnerving. I know that I do my best to avoid risk, seeing as how my
skills aren't up to "master". Just one slip of that particular position could mean
sliced tendon.
Thanks for your comment.
ArtSpot Out
Benny Alba in Oakland, CA.
Underground nuclear testing, defoliation of the rain forests, toxic waste
... Let's put it this way: if the world were a big apartment, we wouldn't
get our deposit back. -John Ross
Message 2
From: Dave Bull
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:36:02 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36543] Re: chinese cutting
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Benny wrote:
> That said, is there some particular reason that the cutter didn't
> revolve the wood, instead having the blade headed in the fleshy
> direction? The photo was a bit unnerving. I know that I do my
> best to avoid risk, seeing as how my skills aren't up to "master".
> Just one slip of that particular position could mean sliced tendon.
Well, Eva may answer for the Chinese carver, but I can pop something in
here for the Japanese side - because when you see photos of traditional
carvers here too, you may think it looks 'dangerous':
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/hyaku-nin-issho/1995/summer/ito_3.jpg
It's not. Not at all. In the Japanese tradition, the blade is held in
the fist (not pencil style), and is - for the most part - drawn towards
the carver. He has a quite flexible wrist, and can turn 'right' and
'left' as the blade comes towards him, covering pretty much the full
180 degree range from one side to the other.
One finger (sometimes thumb) of the opposing hand is nearly always in
place pressing against the shaft of the blade. If you have the
impression that the blade is cutting through the wood like this next
sentence, you are wrong. (this is difficult to do in words ...)
"Pull ... pull ... Hmm, here's a tough bit of wood ... Grrr ... pull
... pull ... Oh! - blade suddenly jumps forward - ... blood spurts ...
"
What is actually happening, is that far more force is being applied to
the blade than is actually necessary, but this is _almost_ entirely
counterbalanced by the push from the supporting finger.
(these numbers are imaginary ... just an attempt to show what I mean)
- to cut a particular depth in a particular piece of wood may need a
force of 100
- cutting force is actually '500' pulling towards the carver
- pushing force from the supporting finger is '400' - in the opposite
direction
- thus, the knife slowly cuts through the wood
But because of the much larger forces being applied, there is a huge
'reservoir' of energy available at any given moment. If the carver
detects some resistance in the wood (harder part of grain, etc. etc.)
he doesn't push any harder at all - he simply reduces the offset
pressure being applied by the supporting finger. Just a smidgeon ...
enough to allow the blade to continue moving.
As the blade then moves ahead and perhaps meets less resistance, he
increases the offset pressure to match, maintaining smooth motion. He
adjusts constantly ... pulling back to 390 ... pushing ahead to 410 ...
And all the while, the knife is being driven with the same original
force of 500.
There is _never_ any 'unsupported' or 'wild' pressure being applied to
the knife. If a soft grain is suddenly encountered, the knife will
never leap forward and 'slice that tendon'. It just doesn't happen.
The beginner carver will - of course - cut himself occasionally.
Learning how to balance these opposing pressures takes time and
experience. But believe me, it's nowhere as dangerous as you may think
from looking at a static photo.
Should Eva put a message on her page ... "Kids, don't try this at
home!"? That's up to her. Her intention was to illustrate how the pros
do it, and she has done so.
So relax people; I have cut a block or two over the past few decades,
and ... this is true ... I haven't the slightest single scar anywhere
on my hands, and I'll wager that it's the same with the Chinese carver
in that photo.
Dave
> That said, is there some particular reason that the cutter didn't
> revolve the wood, instead having the blade headed in the fleshy
> direction? The photo was a bit unnerving. I know that I do my
> best to avoid risk, seeing as how my skills aren't up to "master".
> Just one slip of that particular position could mean sliced tendon.
Well, Eva may answer for the Chinese carver, but I can pop something in
here for the Japanese side - because when you see photos of traditional
carvers here too, you may think it looks 'dangerous':
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~xs3d-bull/hyaku-nin-issho/1995/summer/ito_3.jpg
It's not. Not at all. In the Japanese tradition, the blade is held in
the fist (not pencil style), and is - for the most part - drawn towards
the carver. He has a quite flexible wrist, and can turn 'right' and
'left' as the blade comes towards him, covering pretty much the full
180 degree range from one side to the other.
One finger (sometimes thumb) of the opposing hand is nearly always in
place pressing against the shaft of the blade. If you have the
impression that the blade is cutting through the wood like this next
sentence, you are wrong. (this is difficult to do in words ...)
"Pull ... pull ... Hmm, here's a tough bit of wood ... Grrr ... pull
... pull ... Oh! - blade suddenly jumps forward - ... blood spurts ...
"
What is actually happening, is that far more force is being applied to
the blade than is actually necessary, but this is _almost_ entirely
counterbalanced by the push from the supporting finger.
(these numbers are imaginary ... just an attempt to show what I mean)
- to cut a particular depth in a particular piece of wood may need a
force of 100
- cutting force is actually '500' pulling towards the carver
- pushing force from the supporting finger is '400' - in the opposite
direction
- thus, the knife slowly cuts through the wood
But because of the much larger forces being applied, there is a huge
'reservoir' of energy available at any given moment. If the carver
detects some resistance in the wood (harder part of grain, etc. etc.)
he doesn't push any harder at all - he simply reduces the offset
pressure being applied by the supporting finger. Just a smidgeon ...
enough to allow the blade to continue moving.
As the blade then moves ahead and perhaps meets less resistance, he
increases the offset pressure to match, maintaining smooth motion. He
adjusts constantly ... pulling back to 390 ... pushing ahead to 410 ...
And all the while, the knife is being driven with the same original
force of 500.
There is _never_ any 'unsupported' or 'wild' pressure being applied to
the knife. If a soft grain is suddenly encountered, the knife will
never leap forward and 'slice that tendon'. It just doesn't happen.
The beginner carver will - of course - cut himself occasionally.
Learning how to balance these opposing pressures takes time and
experience. But believe me, it's nowhere as dangerous as you may think
from looking at a static photo.
Should Eva put a message on her page ... "Kids, don't try this at
home!"? That's up to her. Her intention was to illustrate how the pros
do it, and she has done so.
So relax people; I have cut a block or two over the past few decades,
and ... this is true ... I haven't the slightest single scar anywhere
on my hands, and I'll wager that it's the same with the Chinese carver
in that photo.
Dave
Message 3
From: ArtSpotiB # aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:47:56 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36544] Blood, Tears and, wait a minute, no OOPS!
Send Message: To this poster
Bravo, Dave,
for informing us of the reality of the situation. I figured that there had to
be a good reason for the method... Totally cool to see it differently than
originally supposed.
Thanks!
ArtSpot Out
Benny in Calif.
Underground nuclear testing, defoliation of the rain forests, toxic waste
... Let's put it this way: if the world were a big apartment, we wouldn't
get our deposit back. -John Ross
for informing us of the reality of the situation. I figured that there had to
be a good reason for the method... Totally cool to see it differently than
originally supposed.
Thanks!
ArtSpot Out
Benny in Calif.
Underground nuclear testing, defoliation of the rain forests, toxic waste
... Let's put it this way: if the world were a big apartment, we wouldn't
get our deposit back. -John Ross
Message 4
From: "Eva Pietzcker"
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:47:09 GMT
Subject: [Baren 36545] chinese cutting without band-aid possible
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Dear Bareners,
some - hopefully last - remarks about Chinese printmaking.
First, I was asked about tools and materials. It is difficult to get Chinese tools, partly because only a few studios are still practicing the traditional way of woodblock printing. I was told that the brush for inking and the tool for printing are done by craftspeople. I know that the quan dao knife was custom-made, to fit perfectly into the users hand, and one Chinese printmaking friend told me that it was even done by the artist. Typical for Chinese spiritual or art schools, many skills, including the involved tools, are kept secret with often only male successors being allowed to study it.
I think the Chinese system of printing can be practiced here and today, but the thin Chinese paper has to be used which can be printed on also in dry state. Chinese printing is done with a lot of "painting" on the block which can be fun. The used printing tool should be quite even, so a fine baren or, maybe best, one of these sh--- barens without a real cord inside might work best.
Lastly, I want to answer on Graham Scholes and Sarahs postings. I don't see a reason to comment my photo about Chinese cutting. The cutter is clearly resting the knife on her left thumb, just as Japanese cutters do it, so what could happen? This site is about Chinese woodblock and not about safety. Do I really have to add that not everything on earth has to be imitated?
Exchange is not about being right or wrong and I don't understand how so much aggression can be involved in a formal discussion.
Kind regards,
Eva Pietzcker
----------------------------------
Eva Pietzcker
www.pietzcker.de
www.druckstelle.info
----------------------------------
some - hopefully last - remarks about Chinese printmaking.
First, I was asked about tools and materials. It is difficult to get Chinese tools, partly because only a few studios are still practicing the traditional way of woodblock printing. I was told that the brush for inking and the tool for printing are done by craftspeople. I know that the quan dao knife was custom-made, to fit perfectly into the users hand, and one Chinese printmaking friend told me that it was even done by the artist. Typical for Chinese spiritual or art schools, many skills, including the involved tools, are kept secret with often only male successors being allowed to study it.
I think the Chinese system of printing can be practiced here and today, but the thin Chinese paper has to be used which can be printed on also in dry state. Chinese printing is done with a lot of "painting" on the block which can be fun. The used printing tool should be quite even, so a fine baren or, maybe best, one of these sh--- barens without a real cord inside might work best.
Lastly, I want to answer on Graham Scholes and Sarahs postings. I don't see a reason to comment my photo about Chinese cutting. The cutter is clearly resting the knife on her left thumb, just as Japanese cutters do it, so what could happen? This site is about Chinese woodblock and not about safety. Do I really have to add that not everything on earth has to be imitated?
Exchange is not about being right or wrong and I don't understand how so much aggression can be involved in a formal discussion.
Kind regards,
Eva Pietzcker
----------------------------------
Eva Pietzcker
www.pietzcker.de
www.druckstelle.info
----------------------------------