Today's postings
- [Baren 23896] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V26 #2515 (Jan 18, 2004) (GWohlken)
- [Baren 23897] Re: Beginners Questions (ArtfulCarol # aol.com)
- [Baren 23898] pigment and paste (Barbara Mason)
- [Baren 23899] Re: Beginners Questions (Charles Morgan)
- [Baren 23900] Re: Shunga? (Wanda)
- [Baren 23901] Re: seeking advice on moving a press (Wanda)
- [Baren 23902] Re: seeking advice on moving a press (FurryPressII # aol.com)
- [Baren 23903] Japanese Papermaking Resources ("Andrew Schroeder")
- [Baren 23904] professional movers (also called machinery riggers) (Barbara Mason)
Message 1
From: GWohlken
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 08:13:48 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23896] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V26 #2515 (Jan 18, 2004)
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> 2. When I print, sometimes some of the ink comes through the back of
> the
> paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is
> this
> normal or what am I doing wrong?
Steve, I have noticed the same thing happening when I use kitakata
paper and oil based ink. The pigment goes through somewhat and can
come off on the burnishing tool. I will notice that I'm smearing a
bit of color around on the back of the paper as I'm hand printing.
Kitakata (one of the papers I use most often) is not sized, I believe,
so Dave is right in saying it may be because the paper is not sized.
~Gayle/Ohio
> the
> paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is
> this
> normal or what am I doing wrong?
Steve, I have noticed the same thing happening when I use kitakata
paper and oil based ink. The pigment goes through somewhat and can
come off on the burnishing tool. I will notice that I'm smearing a
bit of color around on the back of the paper as I'm hand printing.
Kitakata (one of the papers I use most often) is not sized, I believe,
so Dave is right in saying it may be because the paper is not sized.
~Gayle/Ohio
Message 2
From: ArtfulCarol # aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:24:53 EST
Subject: [Baren 23897] Re: Beginners Questions
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Steve writes:
>2. When I print, sometimes some of the ink comes through the back of the
>paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is this
>normal or what am I doing wrong?
>That's a question I can handle
Use a barrier sheet between the print and the baren---glassine or tracing
paper. It protects the baren, allows it to move more smoothly, and you can see
what you are doing right through it.
Enjoy
Carol L.
>2. When I print, sometimes some of the ink comes through the back of the
>paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is this
>normal or what am I doing wrong?
>That's a question I can handle
Use a barrier sheet between the print and the baren---glassine or tracing
paper. It protects the baren, allows it to move more smoothly, and you can see
what you are doing right through it.
Enjoy
Carol L.
Message 3
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:33:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23898] pigment and paste
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Steve,
I think you must be using too much pigment and paste. Wanda and I were at a workshop a few years ago and Dave was also there all the way from Japan. It was such a treat to have this great printmaker help us. He said "why are you using so much pigment and paste"? We said, well, we didn't know...but of course we learned to use a lot less and to print an area twice if we wanted it darker. Also the type of paper makes a huge difference. The better the paper the better the print. Just no question about this, and unsized paper can cause you a lot of problems. If your paper is nicely damp (dampen it and leave it in a plastic bag overnight) you can have your block just shiny to print, there should be only a small amount of moisture on it. If it is "wet" you have too much. You should be able to look across it in the light and see shine. This is one of the hardest things to learn, getting just the right amount and as your skill increases you will see that the amount of pigment to paste on a
given print will also change. If you mix the paste into the pigment it seems to thicken in the dish...maybe this is my imagination but it seems that way to me, so I have less control. Believe me we need all the control we can get, this process is hard to do, but well worth the effort. As we get better a great calm comes over us as we work...this is a very zen process. Good for your soul. Be sure to get the block nice and damp before you start printing. Dave does a few prints to bring it up, sometimes inking it two or three times before printing. I lay really damp paper towels over my block and it seems to help. About 3-5 minutes. Then you should be ready to go. As the block and brushes absorbs both pigment and paste the prints sort of stablize at some point, having just the right amount of moisture on the block. Usually about print #10.
As to the offsetting, I have had that happen with the neri-zumi ink. It is just so dense and I used too much, the paper could not absorb it all. You can stagger the prints as you stack them up, that will help. Worst case, lay them out individually and lay damp newsprint over them, then layer them in a pile. This is a lot more work but if you are trying to finish an edition it might be the only way. Be sure the newsprint is only damp and not "wet" or you will add too much water to your paper. The pigment should not go through and should not offset...so you have to be a sleuth and figure out why it happened so you can correct it next time.
I enjoyed Dave's comment about a little paste buildup...if I ever get good enough to have this problem and to actually notice it, I will be so pleased! But we go forward and someday....it could happen!
Gayle,
I have never had ink come through Kitakata paper, even using a press...you must be using too much ink. I use very transparent colors and have printed 6 or 7, one behind the other on Kitakata and have never, never had it come through, I can certainly see the darker colors, but that is all. Are you printing with a regular baren? Maybe if you had a more solid baren, like Maria's door know printing tool you could use less ink and get the coverage you like. I know you like a lot of black.....for those vampire prints!
Best to all,
Barbara
>2. When I print, sometimes some of the ink comes through the back of the paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is this normal or what am I doing wrong?
>3. When I do a multicolour print I'm not sure how to deal with the prints as they come off the block before I go on to the next colour. Can you just stack them one on top of the other?
>Many thanks for you help
>Steve
---------------------------------
I think you must be using too much pigment and paste. Wanda and I were at a workshop a few years ago and Dave was also there all the way from Japan. It was such a treat to have this great printmaker help us. He said "why are you using so much pigment and paste"? We said, well, we didn't know...but of course we learned to use a lot less and to print an area twice if we wanted it darker. Also the type of paper makes a huge difference. The better the paper the better the print. Just no question about this, and unsized paper can cause you a lot of problems. If your paper is nicely damp (dampen it and leave it in a plastic bag overnight) you can have your block just shiny to print, there should be only a small amount of moisture on it. If it is "wet" you have too much. You should be able to look across it in the light and see shine. This is one of the hardest things to learn, getting just the right amount and as your skill increases you will see that the amount of pigment to paste on a
given print will also change. If you mix the paste into the pigment it seems to thicken in the dish...maybe this is my imagination but it seems that way to me, so I have less control. Believe me we need all the control we can get, this process is hard to do, but well worth the effort. As we get better a great calm comes over us as we work...this is a very zen process. Good for your soul. Be sure to get the block nice and damp before you start printing. Dave does a few prints to bring it up, sometimes inking it two or three times before printing. I lay really damp paper towels over my block and it seems to help. About 3-5 minutes. Then you should be ready to go. As the block and brushes absorbs both pigment and paste the prints sort of stablize at some point, having just the right amount of moisture on the block. Usually about print #10.
As to the offsetting, I have had that happen with the neri-zumi ink. It is just so dense and I used too much, the paper could not absorb it all. You can stagger the prints as you stack them up, that will help. Worst case, lay them out individually and lay damp newsprint over them, then layer them in a pile. This is a lot more work but if you are trying to finish an edition it might be the only way. Be sure the newsprint is only damp and not "wet" or you will add too much water to your paper. The pigment should not go through and should not offset...so you have to be a sleuth and figure out why it happened so you can correct it next time.
I enjoyed Dave's comment about a little paste buildup...if I ever get good enough to have this problem and to actually notice it, I will be so pleased! But we go forward and someday....it could happen!
Gayle,
I have never had ink come through Kitakata paper, even using a press...you must be using too much ink. I use very transparent colors and have printed 6 or 7, one behind the other on Kitakata and have never, never had it come through, I can certainly see the darker colors, but that is all. Are you printing with a regular baren? Maybe if you had a more solid baren, like Maria's door know printing tool you could use less ink and get the coverage you like. I know you like a lot of black.....for those vampire prints!
Best to all,
Barbara
>2. When I print, sometimes some of the ink comes through the back of the paper onto the baren which then smudges the back of the next print. Is this normal or what am I doing wrong?
>3. When I do a multicolour print I'm not sure how to deal with the prints as they come off the block before I go on to the next colour. Can you just stack them one on top of the other?
>Many thanks for you help
>Steve
---------------------------------
Message 4
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 08:03:24 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23899] Re: Beginners Questions
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you wrote:
>1. Why do the books tell you to mix the pigment with the paste on the
>block itself? Wouldn't it be easier to mix it in a saucer first?
Just a brief comment from the other side ... as Dave quite correctly says,
you can do micro-control of the color better if you put the pigment and the
paste on the block separately each time.
But, fact is, we do not do this with oil based inks. Nobody mixes the oil
and the pigment on the block when printing with oil based inks. And
besides, the brush that you smooth the pigment/paste out with becomes
somewhat loaded with the mixture anyway, so the amount of adjustment is
somewhat limited.
As a beginner, I certainly found it much easier just to mix the pigment and
paste separately until I got the tint I wanted and got the consistency
about right. Then it was a lot easier for me to judge the amount of goop
going on the plate and to get the tint even, or uneven where I wanted it
uneven.
Note that even if you pre-mix the pigment and paste, you can STILL adjust
things by putting a bit more paste on the block or a bit more pigment on
the block, just as if you had not pre-mixed paste and pigment. In short,
pre-mixing does not prevent you from modifying the mixture on the block as
you go along, just as with the traditional method. So you would still have
the benefit of both approaches.
A year or so ago when I suggested doing things this way, there was some
concern expressed about the pigment/paste mixture molding. But I was using
the commercially available paste from Japan in a green plastic tube and it
has serious preservatives in it. And I was using Windsor & Newton water
colors, and they also have some sort of preservatives. I put the mixture in
small plastic containers with screw caps used for cosmetics and stuck them
in a drawer in my studio. It has been over a year, and they have not molded
yet. The mixtures have dehydrated a bit of course, but a few drops of water
fixes that easily enough. That green tube of rice paste has not molded
after several years, nor have any of my tubes of water color. If they do
not mold separately, they should not mold when mixed together, unless you
seriously dilute the preservatives with water.
If you are using home made rice paste, then mold might be a problem, in
which case you will have to store them in the fridge. But if your dampened
paper is not molding, then the pigment/paste mixture should not be molding
either. And if you want to keep the mixture longer, go down to your local
undertaker or university chemistry or biology department and get a small
bottle of formaldehyde (yucky stuff). Put a drop or two in the mixture, and
it will not mold. Some texts I have read suggest using boric acid as a
preservative, but I have not tried that. Boric acid can be had in powder
form from your local pharmacy ... used to be used in solution as an eye
wash, I think. I have no idea what preservatives are in the commercially
prepared rice paste, nor what preservatives are in commercial water color.
In summary, if you think it will be easier, then try it. You might find
that it works just fine for what you are trying to do, and it is a lot
simpler ... no need to be locked in to just one way of doing things if
something else works better for you ... ;-)}}}
Cheers ....... Charles
>1. Why do the books tell you to mix the pigment with the paste on the
>block itself? Wouldn't it be easier to mix it in a saucer first?
Just a brief comment from the other side ... as Dave quite correctly says,
you can do micro-control of the color better if you put the pigment and the
paste on the block separately each time.
But, fact is, we do not do this with oil based inks. Nobody mixes the oil
and the pigment on the block when printing with oil based inks. And
besides, the brush that you smooth the pigment/paste out with becomes
somewhat loaded with the mixture anyway, so the amount of adjustment is
somewhat limited.
As a beginner, I certainly found it much easier just to mix the pigment and
paste separately until I got the tint I wanted and got the consistency
about right. Then it was a lot easier for me to judge the amount of goop
going on the plate and to get the tint even, or uneven where I wanted it
uneven.
Note that even if you pre-mix the pigment and paste, you can STILL adjust
things by putting a bit more paste on the block or a bit more pigment on
the block, just as if you had not pre-mixed paste and pigment. In short,
pre-mixing does not prevent you from modifying the mixture on the block as
you go along, just as with the traditional method. So you would still have
the benefit of both approaches.
A year or so ago when I suggested doing things this way, there was some
concern expressed about the pigment/paste mixture molding. But I was using
the commercially available paste from Japan in a green plastic tube and it
has serious preservatives in it. And I was using Windsor & Newton water
colors, and they also have some sort of preservatives. I put the mixture in
small plastic containers with screw caps used for cosmetics and stuck them
in a drawer in my studio. It has been over a year, and they have not molded
yet. The mixtures have dehydrated a bit of course, but a few drops of water
fixes that easily enough. That green tube of rice paste has not molded
after several years, nor have any of my tubes of water color. If they do
not mold separately, they should not mold when mixed together, unless you
seriously dilute the preservatives with water.
If you are using home made rice paste, then mold might be a problem, in
which case you will have to store them in the fridge. But if your dampened
paper is not molding, then the pigment/paste mixture should not be molding
either. And if you want to keep the mixture longer, go down to your local
undertaker or university chemistry or biology department and get a small
bottle of formaldehyde (yucky stuff). Put a drop or two in the mixture, and
it will not mold. Some texts I have read suggest using boric acid as a
preservative, but I have not tried that. Boric acid can be had in powder
form from your local pharmacy ... used to be used in solution as an eye
wash, I think. I have no idea what preservatives are in the commercially
prepared rice paste, nor what preservatives are in commercial water color.
In summary, if you think it will be easier, then try it. You might find
that it works just fine for what you are trying to do, and it is a lot
simpler ... no need to be locked in to just one way of doing things if
something else works better for you ... ;-)}}}
Cheers ....... Charles
Message 5
From: Wanda
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:31:23 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23900] Re: Shunga?
Send Message: To this poster
Hmmm wouldn't that be "shuuga"?
Wanda
Wanda
Message 6
From: Wanda
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 10:25:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23901] Re: seeking advice on moving a press
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For some reason this wound up in my moderator's box. Anyone have advice or
help for Kenny?
By the way, Kenny, we know who Karen Kunc is - we all admire her work &
even have some of her former students in Baren! And a big welcome to Baren
to you!
Wanda
Barenforum moderator
on 1/17/04 11:20 AM, Kenny Walton at KENNYWALTONatalltel.net wrote:
Hi ,
I am a new member and the spouse of a color woodcut artist. { Karen Kunc -
reduction process , multiple blocks, oil based ,
usually prints on rice paper or other oriental stock }
I am faced with the task of transporting a "new" used Takach 34 X 60 etching
press . I'm trying to avail myself of any advice
that I can find. Has anyone here any information or experience with this
specific press and moving or relocating it ?
I have the website info. for Takach but every bit of info. can be valuable.
I'd be very grateful for any experiences any of you might be able to share.
Thanks in advance ! Kenny
help for Kenny?
By the way, Kenny, we know who Karen Kunc is - we all admire her work &
even have some of her former students in Baren! And a big welcome to Baren
to you!
Wanda
Barenforum moderator
on 1/17/04 11:20 AM, Kenny Walton at KENNYWALTONatalltel.net wrote:
Hi ,
I am a new member and the spouse of a color woodcut artist. { Karen Kunc -
reduction process , multiple blocks, oil based ,
usually prints on rice paper or other oriental stock }
I am faced with the task of transporting a "new" used Takach 34 X 60 etching
press . I'm trying to avail myself of any advice
that I can find. Has anyone here any information or experience with this
specific press and moving or relocating it ?
I have the website info. for Takach but every bit of info. can be valuable.
I'd be very grateful for any experiences any of you might be able to share.
Thanks in advance ! Kenny
Message 7
From: FurryPressII # aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:26:52 EST
Subject: [Baren 23902] Re: seeking advice on moving a press
Send Message: To this poster
use professional movers If they are bonded and insured you have recourse
for any damage and besides they generally know what they are doing.
don't try to do it yourself.
john center
for any damage and besides they generally know what they are doing.
don't try to do it yourself.
john center
Message 8
From: "Andrew Schroeder"
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:52:53 +0000
Subject: [Baren 23903] Japanese Papermaking Resources
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I was just wondering if anyone out there could point me in the direction for
some information on the making of most Japanese Papers. I'm thinking of
working on my own hand made paper for few upcoming projects, and possibly
print exchange #20. Thanks...
Andrew
***
Andrew Schroeder
andrew_ne_1982@hotmail.com
some information on the making of most Japanese Papers. I'm thinking of
working on my own hand made paper for few upcoming projects, and possibly
print exchange #20. Thanks...
Andrew
***
Andrew Schroeder
andrew_ne_1982@hotmail.com
Message 9
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:31:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23904] professional movers (also called machinery riggers)
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John,
They may be bonded, but I am not so sure they know what they are doing....we use them to move equipment that weighs between 8,000 and 30,000 pounds and they seem sort of incompetant to me. I think it is some sort of miracle they haven't dropped a machine.....I try to stay home when I know something is being moved. It makes me really nervous! We have a 30,000 pound machine now in a container sitting in the parking lot and they are trying to figure out how to get it to the back end of the container so they can use a fork lift to get it out, as they always put the heavy stuff in the front....so they are thinking of using a chain to pull it. They jack it up and put it on skates, like roller skates but heavier duty. I am staying home tomorrow to save my sanity. But by Tuesday it should be done and I can rest easy and go in and look at the new machine. In my other life we do injection molding of thermo-plastic. If they ever drop one of these machines it is mega bucks....so lets hope they
are lucky one more time.
When I moved my press I got my son and his kung fu group...they just carried it and it only took 5 of them. They put it into a pick-up truck and just tied it down. How big is this press and how much does it weigh? They come apart and you can move the pieces separately, you can have them crated if you have to go far, or they will just tie it down to a pallet and move it with a fork lift without the bed and wheel. I think Takach can help you, they certainly do it all the time, call them up and ask them. They are really nice and they sure won't want one of their presses damaged.
These professionals are really expensive...about $300 an hour for moving the machines we have....hard to justify that for a press. And they work really, really slow. Maybe call up the kung fu guys.
Best to all,
Barbara
They may be bonded, but I am not so sure they know what they are doing....we use them to move equipment that weighs between 8,000 and 30,000 pounds and they seem sort of incompetant to me. I think it is some sort of miracle they haven't dropped a machine.....I try to stay home when I know something is being moved. It makes me really nervous! We have a 30,000 pound machine now in a container sitting in the parking lot and they are trying to figure out how to get it to the back end of the container so they can use a fork lift to get it out, as they always put the heavy stuff in the front....so they are thinking of using a chain to pull it. They jack it up and put it on skates, like roller skates but heavier duty. I am staying home tomorrow to save my sanity. But by Tuesday it should be done and I can rest easy and go in and look at the new machine. In my other life we do injection molding of thermo-plastic. If they ever drop one of these machines it is mega bucks....so lets hope they
are lucky one more time.
When I moved my press I got my son and his kung fu group...they just carried it and it only took 5 of them. They put it into a pick-up truck and just tied it down. How big is this press and how much does it weigh? They come apart and you can move the pieces separately, you can have them crated if you have to go far, or they will just tie it down to a pallet and move it with a fork lift without the bed and wheel. I think Takach can help you, they certainly do it all the time, call them up and ask them. They are really nice and they sure won't want one of their presses damaged.
These professionals are really expensive...about $300 an hour for moving the machines we have....hard to justify that for a press. And they work really, really slow. Maybe call up the kung fu guys.
Best to all,
Barbara