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Message 1
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:25:16 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23634] Re: More Yoshida quotes....bla bla bla........
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"But Hiroshi believed that the painter, as the initial creator of the
design, should have supreme authority, and that he, as the painter should
supervise the carvers and printers and in so doing also assume the role of
director".

About Toshi Yoshida:

"The shin-hanga" movement , which fluorished during Toshi's adolescence
and early adulthood, was virtually extinct by his fiftieth birthday, and
Toshi's method of production, which used carvers and printers to make
woodblock prints based on his designs, was artistically suspect. "

"And by the 1960's, when most woodblock artists were experimenting with
stencil, screenprinting, photolithography, and other mixed media
techniques, the studio system Toshi had inherited from his father seemed
decidedly old-fashioned."


....the book also mentions that Toshi was trained since an early age as a
carver and printer at his father's studio and would help out in these
areas when times were tough....but it seems that his major role was that
of sketching, painting and designing images for new prints to keep the
family economically safe. This at times affected his ability to make
pursue new directions.

He had a physical impairment from childhood (polio) which caused him to
walk with a pronounced limp and to not participate in sports. Finally
after his father passed away, Toshi was able to free himself from his
father's shadow and go in different directions with his art.


I think if anything, starting with the youngest son, Hodaka, and the next
generation of Yoshida's...the old school of print production started to
fade and the Yoshida artists became more involved in the physical process
of making prints.

One thing for sure...this family was sure blessed with
longevity....Hiroshi's mother lived to 90, Hiroshi lived to 80 and his
wife Fujio an artist herself lived to 99; Toshi died at 84 and their
younger son Hodaka died at 70. Perhaps not exceptional lives compared to
todays life expectancy but certainly a remarkable accomplishment
considering how well traveled this family was and the times in which they
lived and endured.

thanks for staying with me thru this bla bla bla.....Julio

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Message 2
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:33:10 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23635] Re: Yoshidas - Noboru Sawai canadian printmaker
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Yes, I recognize the name, a very accomplished artist and teacher but I
did not realized he also did woodblock....most of the work I have seen
from him are etchings and other mixed media...

http://www.wallacegalleries.com/htm/SawaiMain.html

For those still looking for inspiration for their #19 Shunga print...make
sure to look at Mr. Sawai's link/prints...."My Hat II" and "Antique
Seat".....

thanks...Julio Rodriguez

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Message 3
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:39:25 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23636] Re: Yoshidas - Noboru Sawai canadian printmaker
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Charles writes:
" Noboru does pretty much only wood block prints ... no etched plates."

Just wanted to mention that ALL of the prints at the Noboru Sawai link I
gave in my previous post are labeled as etchings...not woodblocks. Perhaps
they are mixed media with a little woodblock thrown in ? Not sure.

thanks...Julio Rodriguez

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Message 4
From: Troy Harris
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:48:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23637] Yamashiro paper for Japanese style?
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Hi,

Has anyone used Yamashiro paper for the Japanese style
of pasting paper onto blocks? How does it compare to
Usumino or Minogami, and the Baren Hanshita papers for
transfering artwork onto blocks?

Thanks for any info.


__________________________________

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Message 5
From: "Carole Baker"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:53:00 -0900
Subject: [Baren 23638] Re: bevel or straight edge, etching
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Well now, Dave,

I trust your expertise (and understand the physics somewhat) that the non
bevel side of the tou against the raised area will make for more accurate
cutting due to less compression and thus expansion. But I'm wondering just
why the practice of the bevel side to the raised area became the norm.
There must be some advantage to doing it this way or it wouldn't have become
standard practice. Having never tried to cut with the straight edge on the
raised side, I don't know if it is more difficult to control. Is it? Seems
there must be some good reason or reasons for doing it the other way. I'd
like to know before I trade in my left handed tou for a right handed one
(I"m left handed)...don't want to lose what little control I have.


And to Charles, who wrote,

> That does suggest that the Yoshidas
> were not exactly ignorant about how to carve a block.

Didn't you say that already?

> A Japanese artist now in Vancouver, Noboru Sawai apprenticed with
> Toshi about 20 years ago and other short visits after that. He has
> no evidence one way or the other about the
> use of zinc plates. He did say Toshi's brother used them. It
> seems at that time Toshi was doing all (or mostly ?) wood block. Noboru
> does pretty much only wood block prints ... no etched plates.


Noboru Sawai was using zinc plate etchings for some of his prints a few
years ago when I last visited with him, but not in relief as the Yoshidas.
He etched and printed his lines intaglio on his otherwise hanga prints.

Carole Baker
Gustavus, Alaska

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Message 6
From: "nancy osadchuk"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:49:37 -0700
Subject: [Baren 23639] Testing memories
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Last year someone (?) posted a 'Night Before Printmaker's Christmas' to the tune of ...........I don't remember either the tune or who posted it. I have a printed copy of the words, about six verses but would like to know who sent it or at least the tune it was set to. It was very good and since it is the season......I don't want to send it as an attachment. The first lines are: Twas the night before Xmas, and all through the shop
No printmaker was stirring, work was all at a stop; etc...
Any suggestions? Nancy O.

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Message 7
From: David Bull
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:55:09 +0900
Subject: [Baren 23640] Re: Testing memories
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> Last year someone (?) posted a 'Night Before Printmaker's Christmas'

Our Xmas message is still up there, at this address:
http://barenforum.org/xmas.html

Dave

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Message 8
From: David Bull
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:03:08 +0900
Subject: [Baren 23641] Re: bevel or straight edge, etching
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off-list ...

I think I'd better reply off list, as anything else I say on this is
just going to keep that guy harping on the same thing ... I guess he
feels that I insulted his 'heroes', although I don't quite feel that
way ...


> But I'm wondering just
> why the practice of the bevel side to the raised area became the norm.
> There must be some advantage to doing it this way or it wouldn't have
> become
> standard practice.

I'm sure that the modern printmakers just 'fell' into that way of doing
it ... There is no question that it seems easier to guide the knife when
it is pointed to the 'inside', and indeed, when somebody who knows
nothing about the work picks up a knife for the first time, that's the
way they naturally hold it. And that's how most of those modern
printmakers got started, they were of course not trained with an
apprenticeship as carvers.

Then, because they were cutting quite roughly (I'm of course using that
word, not as an insult, but simply in comparison with the ukiyo-e
cutters), the wood compression factor didn't come into play, and I doubt
that they even notice it, nor that it would make any difference at all
in their work.

So even though somebody like me looks at them and thinks to himself "If
they are going to cut 'inside' I think they would be better off putting
the bevel on the other side ..." I am sure that they don't care.

Whether or not Toshi Yoshida ever gave these issues any thought at all
before publishing his book with illustrations showing the bevel against
the line - which Charles is holding as his 'bible' - I can't say. If he
did, then he must have just made the decision "This way is OK ..."

Dave

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Message 9
From: "GONZALO FERREYRA"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:51:30 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23642] RE: Can I buy single sheets of Hanshita paper in the US?
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>Does anyone know where I could purchase Hanshita paper, the same or similar
>kind that's in the Baren Mall, in the US?

I've been very happy with the Usu Mino from McClain's, at $2.95 per sheet
for 1-10. Shipping, though, is a killer on single sheets, and I defer to
more experienced bareners on whether it comes anywhere near the quality of
that available from Baren Mall...

Best, Gonzalo

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Message 10
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:15:14 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23643] Re: Yoshidas - Noboru Sawai canadian printmaker
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Yes, of course .. I should have said the work of his that I have seen was
wood block ... not mixed media. And as I understand it, his etchings are
primarily of the standard sort, rather than fine line as relief. But then I
certainly cannot claim to know all his work, nor his current interests.

Sorry to have made so sweeping a statement. I promise to be more careful.
Mea Culpa

His time with Toshi was to study woodblock, or at least that was my
impression. He teaches wood block but certainly does other things as well.
I was simply reporting (second hand) his comments on his time with Toshi
and the activity in Toshi's studio.

Cheers .... Charles

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Message 11
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:17:51 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23644] Re: bevel or straight edge, etching
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At 11:03 AM 12/16/03 +0900, you wrote:
>Whether or not Toshi Yoshida ever gave these issues any thought at all
>before publishing his book with illustrations showing the bevel against
>the line - which Charles is holding as his 'bible' - I can't say. If he
>did, then he must have just made the decision "This way is OK ..."


Now Dave, don't be so testy. We should keep this on a friendly level. I
have certainly not tried to insult you, and I hope you do not take anything
I say in that vein. I hope we can have a free interchange of ideas.

I am not holding anything as a bible; you do not support your position by
trying to belittle me on that score. I am not in the least being
doctrinaire ... quite the contrary. I do not think wood block print making
is a religion.

I was quite surprised that you wanted to label other techniques as being
"wrong". I have just been pointing out that a lot of very good artists
don't carve that way, and in fact teach carving with the bevel against the
line. Trying to denigrate such artists by saying they "just stick the knife
in the wood" does not really accomplish anything.

And certainly Toshi Yoshida was not the only one who suggests carving with
the bevel against the line. Remember the other references to which I
pointed. I have looked for other written instructions and have not found
any that advocate keeping the flat against the line. Some simply remain
mute on that aspect.

But I certainly do not have access to the resources that you do. I claim no
expertise here at all. And my resources are limited. Like many others, I
have to learn most of what I know from reading and experimentation. So when
you said it was well documented, I thought it would be very helpful for you
to share that documentation.

Certainly I would not claim there is anything "wrong" with carving that
way, or most any other way for that matter. If it helps your carving, then
go for it. The "right" way to carve is what ever gives you the results you
want.

Surely you are not claiming that you did not do any good work before you
began carving with the flat against the line, are you? When did you first
begin carving that way? You said there was no teacher who taught you to do
it that way. With so many carving a different way, as you say a more
"natural" way, what led you to change your method?

Now, here is one very good reason for sometimes carving with the flat
against the line ... It is a pain to have to keep turning the block around
every time you want to carve on the other side of a line or figure. If you
learn to carve with either the bevel or the flat against the line, you do
not have to flip the block around every time ... so, you can carve faster
by using both, assuming you have adequate control with both methods. If I
were a professional carver, probably being paid piece work, I would learn
to carve both ways so I could be more efficient. Perhaps some of those
Japanese carvers 200 years ago thought the same.

Cheers ........ Charles

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Message 12
From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr."
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:41:25 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23645] Pasting method illustrated
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I used the "hanshita method" a few times, and invite Therese to take a look
at my humble web effort at

http://www.seanet.com/~ritchie/lp_woo.html

bill

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Message 13
From: David Bull
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:18:21 +0900
Subject: [Baren 23646] Re: bevel or straight edge, etching
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> Now Dave, don't be so testy.

'Testy'? or just feeling a tad 'frustrated' more than anything ... I was
kind of feeling that we were going around and around without anything
new being added to our exchange ... (Apologies for sending a message
intended for private consumption out to [Baren] by mistake, but I think
the content was neutral enough that it shouldn't have caused much
offense ...)


> Now, here is one very good reason for sometimes carving with the flat
> against the line ... It is a pain to have to keep turning the block
> around every time you want to carve on the other side of a line or
> figure.

Now _this_ is new content - very interesting content - and this too, may
open up a huge can of worms. It's also going to get somewhat esoteric,
so I don't know how many people will want to try and 'follow' this ...
but anyway, I'll try it ...

In the traditional method that I outlined (point of the knife
'outside' - eyes looking _over_ the hand), the block is _not_ turned
around when the opposite side of the line is cut. Eh? But doesn't this
mean that the bevel would then be against the good wood when cutting
that second side? It does indeed, and in those cases where the line is
thin enough, or the angle inconvenient, etc., the carver first makes a
'muda-bori' (throw-away) cut just a smidgen away from where the real cut
is to go. Then he immediately follows this with the real cut ... bevel
against the good wood. But the waste wood is now free to move away
because of the relief offered by the throw-away cut, and there is
minimal compression on the remaining 'good' wood.

Now that's the _gospel_ of the traditional method, and we are told that
the best carvers in the old days considered it a point of pride never to
move their block once it had been placed on their desk. Even perfect
circles were cut with flexing the wrist, not by moving the block.
Does/can anybody still do it that way? Yes and no ... People trained as
traditional carvers of course know about this, and do what they can to
emulate it, but in practice, none of us still working in this craft
today (and this most definitely includes me) can work at that standard,
and we are all forced to rotate the block sometimes.

But we _know_ what we 'should' be doing. I had a great demonstration of
this while filming a documentary program with the late Ito Susumu, one
of the most respected of the old carvers. I sat by his bench as the
camera people crowded around, shooting from this angle and that, and I
noticed that he _never_ moved his block while the tape was rolling. He
would cut only along lines that were within a certain angle, but then,
once the switch went off and the cameraman moved to adjust the angle, he
would quickly swivel the block to a new position, ready for a bunch more
carving as soon as the tape rolled again. All through the day's filming,
not _once_ did he rotate the block while they were 'watching'.


> ... I would learn to carve both ways so I could be more efficient.
> Perhaps some of those Japanese carvers 200 years ago thought
> the same.

I am sure this is absolutely correct ... efficiency was a major
consideration. But the 'don't rotate the block' has more benefits than
just time lost while the block is swiveled and the eye has to re-find
the carving point. Blocks carved this way are far far 'easier' to print
than blocks carved the other way. Here's where things are going to get
a bit difficult to describe, and again, I'm going to have to go against
the 'standard' illustrations in such sources as the Toshi Yoshida
book. :-)

We have all seen the standard illustration that shows how lines should
be carved - wider at the base, and tapering up to the top. Page 42 in
Toshi's book is an example, showing 'good' and 'bad'. Good means wider
at the base, bad means narrower at the base.

Actually, there is a _third_ way. Imagine a line where one side is cut
on the 'wider at the base' principle, and the opposite side is cut with
the 'narrower at the base' principle. Such a line will appear to be
leaning over, and indeed may actually be _undercut_ on one side. No
good, you may say; such a line would soon be broken in the printing.
Well actually, this is called 'katagiri-bori', and is a hallmark of the
work of the finest carvers of the old days. Here's how it works:

Imagine a block for a Hiroshige landscape, hanshita pasted down. The
block is placed on the old carver's desk, with the kento edge at the
_top_, and the sky zone at the bottom - upside-down in other words. He
now carves the whole thing without moving the block. Close your eyes
and visualize a horizontal line to be carved across the design. He first
carves the far edge of that line, by moving the knife from left to
right, flat side against that line, with the knife steeply (at least 45
degrees) tilted towards himself. Later, when the waste wood is cleared
away, that side of the line will have a 45 degree bevel.

He next carves a relief cut somewhere near the opposite side of the
line, the edge nearest himself. Finally, he cuts the opposite side
itself, again from left to right, now with the bevel against the line,
but with the knife held almost _upright_ or even still tilted _towards
himself_, thus undercutting the line.

He cuts the entire block in the same fashion. Lines that are not
horizontal, but angled this way and that, get a similar treatment, but
always with the same consideration - far side at a gradual slope, close
side at a sharp and steep slope.

Now, this block goes to the printer, who puts in down on his desk in
'proper' orientation, kento marks against his belly. He mixes pigment
and brushes it all over the design. For his final 'touch-up' strokes, he
moves the brush gently over the block sweeping _away_ from himself.
Pigment is thus brushed up those 45 degree slopes, and .... What
happens next is that the pigment then cleanly falls away from the
sharply cut (or undercut) lines, and the edge is left absolutely free of
any residual paste/pigment mixture. With moderate baren pressure, he
takes the impression, which can be as breathtakingly sharp and clean as
anything ever seen on this planet.

An extra benefit, especially for the publisher, is that when the wood
wears down when large editions are pulled, the lines do not quickly
become fat and wide as those carved in the other fashion do.

Was it really done this way? Yep. I can't photograph this kind of
detail for you, but I've got a block right here on my shelf that is
carved with just this method. When I was studying stored surimono blocks
in the V&A in London a few years back, I saw that many of them were cut
in just this fashion. (And for 'documentation' Charles, this is
discussed on pages 274~5 of Katsuyuki Nishijima's well known hanga
manual published in 1976, although he includes it merely for historical
reference, not as a recommendation of a method to use).

OK, skip ahead to the mid-20th century and Mr. Yoshida preparing the
sketches for his woodblock 'how-to' book. Did he know about
'katagiri-bori'? I haven't the slightest idea, yes or no. Should he
teach such a method in his book? Obviously not; this kind of carving
makes _absolutely no sense_ in the modern printmaking style.

And I would claim Charles, that it is the same case with his 'bevel
against the line' illustration. Whatever he actually knew or trained or
practiced in the privacy of his own workroom I have no idea, but it is
obvious that he felt the best way to teach modern students - nearly all
working on softwood such as plywood - was with the method where the
bevel of the knife is used to try and produce a bevel shape on the wood.

What do you say, do we still have more stops on this (perhaps infinite)
bus ride? :-)

Regards,

Dave

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