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Message 1
From: GWohlken
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:00:17 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23619] Guiding the Knife
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> http://barenforum.org/temporary/carving_outside.jpg

Dave, thank you for the link. I'm finding it intriguing. First I had
to translate it over to my own left handedness. I didn't have a knife
at my computer, but picked up a pen instead and tried holding the knife
the way it is being shown in the photo. The thing I found most new was
what the other hand is doing. You can just barely see a finger from
the opposite hand which it seems the blade is being guided by. I tried
that, after a bit of messing around, and discovered I have not been
doing it this way, and wonder if it will be helpful. I can't wait to
go downstairs and try it out. I think what I had been doing with the
opposite hand was cupping it over the hand with the knife and guiding
the knife on top of it rather than from under it.

~Gayle

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Message 2
From: "Gilda Zimmerling"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 7:8:56 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23620] Exchange 18
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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to update all of you on exchange 18. Only one set of prints left to arrive. I received Mike Lyon's prints on Saturday and let me tell you "lucky us" that he filled in at the last minute . They are absolutely beautiful as always. Thanks Mike. I am also waiting on the cases for the exchange. Any ways as soon as the exchange is completed I will ship out the prints and also post to Baren so that you can all keep an eye out for the mail person. Thanks again for your patience Gilda


--- gemzeditionz@earthlink.net

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Message 3
From:
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:04:51 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23621] Is Minogami paper the same as usumino paper?
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Hi,

Is Minogami paper the same as usumino paper?

If not, which paper is better for transferring artwork onto woodblocks using
the Japanese method?

Also are there any good substitutes for the above two papers for
transferring artwork to blocks using the Japanese method?

Lastly what's the best kind of glue to use to glue the paper to blocks.

Thanks for any assistance!

Therese

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Message 4
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:06:42 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23622] Re: to bevel or not to bevel
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At 08:32 AM 12/15/2003 +0900, David Bull wrote:
>And isn't that another _giant_ topic - the idea that even when information
>is right in front of us, even when we actually _read_ it, if we aren't
>'ready' to understand it, it won't 'take' in our minds ...

So true, so true ...

I have experienced compression and expansion using certain techniques (not
with the toh that I've noticed, but with other tools and techniques -- your
post set up a nice 'Gestalt' for me and a bunch of stuff came together,
thanks!), but I'm not ready to concede that bevel up or bevel down affects
compression -- I'll experiment a bit with that in mind, as there may be
some validity :-) to your idea about handle parallel to flat side as
opposed to bevel side thing (I'm just not smart enough (yet) to hold it all
in my head) -- and then, if I still haven't 'come around', we can battle it
out over a beer or three (and some soba!). I should be back in your
neighborhood again late summer or early fall.

Just sign me "Typical Missourian",

Mike


Mike Lyon
http://mlyon.com

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Message 5
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:15:29 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23623] #19 drop-out deadline...
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Please don't forget, those of you who are signed up for Exchange #19
(Shunga / Erotic): December 31 is the "no-penalty" drop-out deadline and
there are six wait-listers chomping at the bit in the holding pen!

On Jan 1st, 2004 if you haven't dropped out of #19 (by emailing the
coordinator) you must either submit your print by Feb 1 or be banished to
dead-beat hell where missing out on many upcoming exchanges will be your
penance! So if you haven't already done so... GET TO WORK YEEEEE-HAAAAaaaaa!

My little aizuri-e print for #19 (Shunga / Erotic) should be done tomorrow
or the next day -- still six blocks (of 19) left to carve and print, but
it's developing a very subtle and sophisticated color surface which is in
JARRING contrast to the most UNsubtle and UNsophisticated of images WAY
closer to porn than art, an appropriate title might be "Sapphic
Glossolalia" ;-)

Coordinator name, email address, mailing address, and other information are
on-line at: http://www.barenforum.org/exchange/exchange_19/exchange_19.html

-- Mike


Mike Lyon
http://mlyon.com

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Message 6
From: ArtfulCarol # aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:44:04 EST
Subject: [Baren 23624] Lefties/ Righties
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Greetings,

I had an idea for a Lefties Can Carve exchange and there are about 6
interested people. The Baren Managers feel that theme is restrictive so there is the
possibility of a 50/50, Lefties/Righties theme :"Lefties Can Carve and So Can
Righties". The Managers will further discuss it next year. Don't you think
it would be fun?
You can ontact me off-line

I carve with my left, write with my left , but cannot accurately throw the
coins in the box at the Toll Plaza with my left hand. (I am the one who might
be honking for help) I throw a ball and open cans with the right, so call me
double -handed , to coin a phrase. Sign--Gemini.

I was following all the pictures and info on bevel, no bevel and had 2
knives beside the computer yesterday as I was doing the moves alternately and
with either hand in addition to experimenting in the studio with straight cuts
on a board ...So Thank you for taking time to explain,


Best to all
Carol L
Irvington, NY

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Message 7
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:43:24 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23625] Re: Is Minogami paper the same as usumino paper?
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At 10:04 AM 12/15/2003 -0500, Therese wrote:
>Also are there any good substitutes for the above two papers for
>transferring artwork to blocks using the Japanese method?

BarenMall paper #22: Hanshita paper 930cm x 630cm Double layer
machine-made paper; draw your design on this, paste it down, then peel off
the back layer to leave the image visible on the wood. $6.80 per
sheet. May be printed on laser printer, copier machine, inkjet printer, as
well as printed by woodblock, painted by brush, pen and ink, pencil,
etc. http://www.barenforum.org/mall/products/paper.php

Rice paste (prepared or make your own by cooking rice starch in water)
works well.

-- Mike


Mike Lyon
http://mlyon.com

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Message 8
From:
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:27:31 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23626] Re: Is Minogami paper the same as usumino paper?
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Thanks Mike,

I'm curious now - is Hanshita paper made of the same materials that minogami
paper or usumino paper is?
Is the only difference between them that hanshita paper is machine made?

Therese

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Message 9
From: Mike Lyon
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:40:16 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23627] Re: Is Minogami paper the same as usumino paper?
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At 11:27 AM 12/15/2003 -0500, Therese wrote:
>I'm curious now - is Hanshita paper made of the same materials that
>minogami paper or usumino paper is? Is the only difference between them
>that hanshita paper is machine made?

This is a question for someone else -- I've never used minogami or
usumino. David Bull has used minogami for hanshita, I believe.

The Baren Mall machine-made hanshita paper is two layers -- the one which
sticks to the block is very thin and gossamer-like tissue, made of long
fibers and the tissue itself seems to consist of several layers, as it wets
and rolls off easily leaving behind a VERY thin (and delicate) layer still
holding the image. The backing paper is heavier than bond, about 1/2 as
thick as cover-stock. Sheets are about 24" x 36". They appear to me to
work very well for hanshita or kyogo. Dimensionally stable-seeming and
easy to print on, apply, peel (and rub off if you need to make the tissue
thinner in order to see the image more clearly).

-- Mike


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com

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Message 10
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23628] Exchange 18
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The cases shipped to Gilda by UPS 5 days ago so it should be soon. Gilda, if you do not get them by Tuesday let me know and I will track them.
Barbara

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Message 11
From: Sharri LaPierre
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:48:21 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23629] Re: New Baren Digest (HTML) V25 #2477 (Dec 15, 2003)
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Dave,
Thank you for that wonderful picture! It explains a lot and is very
helpful to also see that middle finger of the other hand helping to
corral that blade! Now I am anxious to try holding my blade in that
position - if these arthritic, knurled fingers can manage this
position, anyone can do it, even lefties. (Please don't be offended at
that comment all you lefties, it is meant in jest, I am married to one
of your ranks and love him quite a lot -)

April, Thanks for the great pictures of the demo. It was great to see
Bobette of the Books and Janet again, too. I almost feel like I was
there!

Cheers,
Sharri

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Message 12
From: Barbara Campbell
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:52:44 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23630] RE: #19 drop-out deadline...
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Mike, I am very sorry to say that I will have to drop out of the
Shunga/Erotic Exchange #19. John and I just purchased a new home and we
have a February 1st move-in deadline. There is a ton of stuff that needs to
get done before we can move. Unfortunately, it is really cutting into my
studio time. Thank you and I hope to try again at the next exchange.

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Message 13
From: Julio.Rodriguez # walgreens.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:13:25 -0600
Subject: [Baren 23631] Re: Yoshida references...
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I posted a couple of days ago about the historical point of view and the
difference between the old school of labor division and the sosaku-hanga
movement. I think what follows reinforces the point I was trying to make
re the current discussion. I think lot of this also relates to printmaking
in the west.

Not sure who asked about references and documentation but I got some books
on the Yoshida's. I also have the 1966 collaboration book by Toshi and
Yuki on printmaking techniques. To preface the rest of my post let me say
that I like very much the work accomplished by members of this family and
that I own several prints by Hiroshi Yoshida made in the 30's....I even
have part of my own website dedicated to images by Toshi and Hiroshi.

http://www.skokienet.org/bandits/jcrstuff/aprints/shmain.html

Re the Yoshida's I would like to think that they were above all fabulous
artists and print designers, excellent at sketching and painting what they
saw around them. They were trained as painters. Second...they broke away
from Watanabe and other publishers of the time to establish their own
print studio and market their own works. Third, they were great promoters
of 'woodblock' printmaking both in Japan and also to the rest of the
world. Known for their world travels and teachings many of their images
were based on travel abroad. I keep using the word 'they' as in multiples
since there are many more artists in the family than just Toshi and
Hiroshi. But the large majority of their prints were produced using the
old school of labor division that hires out the carving and the printing.

To the point...I have the book "A Japanese Legacy - Four Generations of
Yoshida Family Artists" published in 2002 by the Minneapolis Institute of
Arts as part of a Yoshida family exhibition. The book was done with the
collaboration of the Yoshida family and the text is a result of many
interviews with family members and "Yoshida" experts. I have included some
snips that I think support that Hiroshi Yoshida (and to a lesser degree
Toshi ) was more of a designer than a carver or printer and although he
understood and supervised every aspect of print production...it is
probable that his only physical connection to his own prints are the
pencil signature that indicates his final approval. As a matter of fact,
the book goes so out of the way to note the difference between the two
systems of print production and to emphasize whenever the Yoshida's did
the carving/printing work themselves....which leads to no other conclusion
that this was the rare exception rather than the norm.

From the book (the bold parts are my own emphasis to parts of our ongoing
discussion ) :

"In making his prints, Hiroshi often likened himself to a conductor or
architect who directed every step of the production. He would say that he
needed to have more skills than the artisans he supervised to be able to
fully use their talents. The first block carver he employed was Yamagishi
Kazue and later Maeda Yujiro who carved the blocks for most of his prints. He did not have any specific printers."

"Not only did he constantly strive to expand his knowledge of woodblock
carving and printing techniques, he was meticulous about the quality of
the finished impressions. Only after he was satisfied that a print was
unflawed in paper quality, registration, and color did he stamp it with
his seal and then sign it in pencil. Moreover, he also carved the blocks for fifteen works himself, including the key
block for 'Rapids' and parts of "Snow at Nakazato" and "Fuji from Gotemba".

"He even used zinc plates for the intricately detailed parts of fifty or more of
his prints, including "Tomonoura Harbor", "Plum Gateway" and "Hirosaki Castle".

"Led by Onchi Koshiro, sosaku-hanga artists did everything themselves,
including the carving and printing of their own designs. Although Hiroshi
admired the spirit and creativity of the sosaku-hanga artists, he was
dissatisfied with their production techniques."

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Message 14
From:
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:12:45 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23632] Can I buy single sheets of Hanshita paper in the US?
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Hi,

Does anyone know where I could purchase Hanshita paper, the same or similar
kind that's in the Baren Mall, in the US?

I'd like to buy it from the Baren mall but they have a ten sheet minimum
which is cost prohibitive for me at present.

Thanks!

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Message 15
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:07:05 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23633] Yoshidas
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>>
>>"Not only did he constantly strive to expand his knowledge of woodblock
>>carving and printing techniques, he was meticulous about the quality of
>>the finished impressions. Only after he was satisfied that a print was
>>unflawed in paper quality, registration, and color did he stamp it with
>>his seal and then sign it in pencil. Moreover, he also carved the blocks
>>for fifteen works himself, including the key block for 'Rapids' and parts
>>of "Snow at Nakazato" and "Fuji from Gotemba".
>>
>>"He even used zinc plates for the intricately detailed parts of fifty or
>>more of his prints, including "Tomonoura Harbor", "Plum Gateway" and
>>"Hirosaki Castle".
>>
>>"Led by Onchi Koshiro, sosaku-hanga artists did everything themselves,
>>including the carving and printing of their own designs. Although Hiroshi
>>admired the spirit and creativity of the sosaku-hanga artists, he was
>>dissatisfied with their production techniques."

Thanks for the information Julio. That does suggest that the Yoshidas were
not exactly ignorant about how to carve a block.

A Japanese artist now in Vancouver, Noboru Sawai apprenticed with Toshi
about 20 years ago and other short visits after that. He has no evidence
one way or the other about the
use of zinc plates. He did say Toshi's brother used them. It seems at
that time Toshi was doing all (or mostly ?) wood block. Noboru does pretty
much only wood block prints ... no etched plates.

It would be interesting to have a complete list of the strictly wood block
prints for Toshi and Hiroshi. It would be fun to compare the prints in the
collection at the Victoria Art Gallery to see if one can detect differences.

Cheers ......... Charles

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