Baren Digest               Saturday, 5 July 2003       Volume 24 : Number 2293


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From: G Wohlken <blueman#pantek.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:18:49 -0400
Subject: [Baren 22121] Re: Baren Digest V24 #2291 

Mike, I think a lot of us  (well, maybe only some of us  :-[ ) have 
trouble with math concepts.  Eight inches square, from what I 
understand,  means the two dimensions multiply to equal eight inches. 
 So in reading the numbers you give on the information page for Exchange 
18, you have 2.8 x 2.8 and if I multiply that I get 7.84.  Is that right?
So it can be a little less than eight inches square, but not over?  Am I 
understanding this right or am I wayyyy off base in my understanding of 
what eight inches square is.

So sorry to belabor this, but I'd like to make sure we all understand 
perfectly what eight inches square is.  

~Gayle




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From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon#mlyon.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:50:43 -0500
Subject: [Baren 22122] Re: Baren Digest V24 #2291 

Dear Gayle,

Your basic premise is mostly correct -- the image should be 8 square inches 
(within reason -- I suggested ± 5% and 7.84 is within that 
tolerance.  Because 8 square inches is a bit larger area than 50 square 
centimeters and I didn't want to give examples with decimals which went on 
and on...  the square root of 8 is actually closer to 
2.8284271247461900976033774484194...  so I just rounded it off to '2.8' 
...  ok?  :-).  I don't want to get TOO picky with the 8 square inches 
thing...

But the IMAGE should cover approximately that area (+/- 5%) no more, no 
less.  And the paper should be chuban (10" x 7.5")

Do you think it would help if I put some pictures up on the exchange pages 
to illustrate?  I think I'll do that -- maybe tomorrow, though, as we have 
rehearsal right now for tonight's SpiritFest 
http://www.spiritfest.org/schedule2003_4th.asp -- between 20,000 and 50,000 
are expected to turn out to see and hear Linda and me (and the rest of the 
Kansas City Civic Orchestra -- we share a stand in the 2nd violin section) 
play patriotic 4th of July music at the Liberty Memorial (World War I 
monument) tonight, followed by fireworks, followed by us accompanying 
Dennis DeYoung, lead singer for STYX, 'til midnight or so...  IF I can stay 
awake, as I've been down here at the studio printing my sopping wet paper 
since 6AM...  Gotta go get bussed to rehearsal now...  Am I nervous?  Not 
at all!  Am I prepared?  Not at all!  Poor Dennis DeYoung!

- -- Mike

At 10:18 AM 7/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>Mike, I think a lot of us  (well, maybe only some of us  :-[ ) have 
>trouble with math concepts.  Eight inches square, from what I 
>understand,  means the two dimensions multiply to equal eight inches. So 
>in reading the numbers you give on the information page for Exchange 18, 
>you have 2.8 x 2.8 and if I multiply that I get 7.84.  Is that right?
>So it can be a little less than eight inches square, but not over?  Am I 
>understanding this right or am I wayyyy off base in my understanding of 
>what eight inches square is
>
>So sorry to belabor this, but I'd like to make sure we all understand 
>perfectly what eight inches square is.
>
>~Gayle


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon#mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com  

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From: Wanda <robertson#canby.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:40:54 -0700
Subject: [Baren 22123] about baren stuff 

This is the 3rd time I've tried to send this to the list - it keeps
rejecting it because I put *nsubscribing & *ubscribing in the header!  Well,
here it goes again:

If you have been trying to subscribe under a different address or
unsubscribe and re-subscribe & things just don't seem to be happening right
- - well, you are correct!  The server in Japan seems to have put some spam
blockers in place that are conflicting with our sign-up & unsub pages on the
barenforum web site.  I'm doing it at this end for the time being, so please
be patient.  

Wanda
barenforum moderator


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From: "Janet Warner Montgomery" <originaletchings#hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:37:47 -0400
Subject: [Baren 22124] Re: Baren Digest V24 #2291 

As I understand it, this is how I start out. I am a new member,
and a fervid lurker. My name is janet montgomery, and I use my
maiden name, warner to work. I always have, however I am widowed.

Initially I was absolutely freaked that I could not find a
source for the paper 'basingwerk' when my supply had run out.
That is why I went on the 'net looking, and found you. I still
want to know what something similar would be, I understand from
various sources it is no longer made. And it is more of a
letterpress paper. The next best, for aquatint, is lama-li.

Ah. I am an etcher. basically. But the Basingwerk took an
aquatint like no other. I am learning to work differently to
compensate. I still want to know...out of curiosity.

I took a week-end thing that I think must have been moku hanga in
Charleston, Printmakers south, it used to be.  I was
terrible. Took a one week at Penland, nc with Gaylord Shanilac,
wood engraving, loved it. Was ok. But I am still an etcher, with
interest in many things. well, printmaking, at least.

 I learn from the group, a lot. I do not seek to impose my needs on the
group. Some and again there has been something I thought I could
add , so here's me. I do really want to know what is the
difference between John Furr and John Center. 

I never thought I would be learning any portueguse..but
'madeira'...uh-huh- I can remember that. Thank you, Fatima! Why
do you have complete english?

With all best to everyone.
jan

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From: Barbara Mason <barbaramason45#yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 22125] Welcome to baren 


Janet,
Welcome to the baren. This is a great group of people, both oil
and water mixed.

I too am an etcher of sorts, but I love the moku hanga and I am
also terrible at it. If I had found it 20 years ago there might
have been hope, but think I will not live long enough to be good
at it.

There are lots of lists on the web, but for some reason the
people on this one are very special.Maybe it is the fact that
woodblock is the oldest form of printmaking, I just donot know
why this group seems so much more interesting and active than any
of the others I belong to. Possibly it is the focus on woodblock
as printmaking is so technically  vast that othere lists lack
this focus.

John Center lives in Chicago, is a very competant engraver and is
the age to  be John Furr's father. John Furr lives in Toronto and
is a trememdously talanted and enthusiastic printmaker and is not
relation to John Center.

I am a traditionally trained printmaker but I laugh to think of
the training I had in woodblock, the demo was so bad it is no
wonder I discounted it. I have learned enough to teach this
process to rank beginners and at least I can demo it correctly 
if not with excellence. So if nothing else I can give people who
might have interest some true basic information and a little help
with the first year or so.

If you want to talk off list, I would welcome more talk about
that other kind of printmaking!

Best to you,
Barbara




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From: Wanda <robertson#canby.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:40:54 -0700
Subject: [Baren 22126] about baren stuff 

This is the 3rd time I've tried to send this to the list - it keeps
rejecting it because I put *nsubscribing & *ubscribing in the header!  Well,
here it goes again:

If you have been trying to subscribe under a different address or
unsubscribe and re-subscribe & things just don't seem to be happening right
- - well, you are correct!  The server in Japan seems to have put some spam
blockers in place that are conflicting with our sign-up & unsub pages on the
barenforum web site.  I'm doing it at this end for the time being, so please
be patient.  

Wanda
barenforum moderator


------------------------------

From: FurryPressII#aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 16:57:01 EDT
Subject: [Baren 22127] Re: Baren Digest V24 #2291 


Hum     basingwerk for etching that is a new one for me used to use it for 
printing wood engravings because it is very smooth surfaced. But only wished it 
came in white so later I used arches silk-screen instead for my wood 
engravings.  Arches silk-screen is what is called a "waterleaf paper" but I always print 
my wood engravings dry as damp paper seems to affect them in rather 
unpleasant ways.  Waterleaf paper has no or very little sizing so you would not dampen 
it.

    Gaylord S. is the best color wood engraver that I have had the pleasure 
to have met. His work clearly takes engraving that extra mile in the same ball 
park as the old commercial engravers of the past but in color something they 
rarely ever did.

My mustache approaches John Furr age.  lol     Not that that matters.

On a totally different matter I propose doing a "pillow book" for the next 
exchange.
If one would look at western art history on the subject of Japanese wood cuts 
you would get a very narrow and misleading look at what the subjects were of 
the Ukiyo-e prints. The townsmen of the time gave themselves over to fleeting 
delights and spendthrift behavior, drowning their cares in the enticements of 
the pleasure quarters.  As one of their songs had it "Life is but a 
dream--enjoy it while you can." And the ukiyo-e-ehi, the artis who skillfully depicted 
this floating world, were admiringly described as those who painted the 
Naka-no-cho, which no artist of the Kano or the Tosa school could do."  In other 
words, the ukiyo-e-shi pictured such sights as the main street of the YOSHIWARA, 
the celebrated brothel district of Edo, (Tokyo) choosing subjects that no 
painter of the established academic schools would ever dare to portray.  Some 
estimates that the percentage of wood cuts that made up the art related to pillow 
books was close to 50% of all the wood cuts done in Japan.  But due to the 
values of westerners you would not know that esp if all you looked at was art 
history books etc.

I would volunteer to coordinate and to bind the books as well.  Exact detail 
to fellow.

John "furrypress" Center



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From: John and Michelle Morrell <jmmorrell#gci.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:19:29 -0800
Subject: [Baren 22128] Oozing oil from every pore, we slide our way..... 

David Stone wrote:

>The other Dave here (Dave S, with the grey beard) in Japan - I've come out
>of my lurker box just to add a comment or two on this "oil v water" thing -
>hopefully to prevent members flinging ink brushes or rollers by e-mail...
> Over 21,000 posts ago, [Baren] was loosely specified (by phone) and Dave B
>sent me some of the mails by post... I, for one, was really pleased to
>hear that (Japanese) traditional woodblock printing was to be the prime
>subject of his site and - now don't throw your ink rollers yet - still think
>[Baren] should retain the water-based method in its very separate area...
>along with the dictionary etc., etc. There's nothing at all wrong with
>building a complimentary "oil" section though, so put down that ink knife.
>
>+Why? If you trace back our adopted craft (Dave B's and to a lessor
>extent mine) it was developed when there were NO rollers, oil-based
>inks, presses etc. This is why I took an interest - heretic to my trade as
>I was - a letterpress printer yes... but a user lead type, brass rule, oily
>inks, chemicals (one called dragon's blood). Now, I'm also a computer-
>design nut who can be found at a desk once a week... Anyway, in mokuhanga
>I found two things... wood-created "plates" (always wanted to be a
>carpenter, like Grandfather) and printing (6-yr. apprenticeship). Oil
>and presses were unnecessary and not much space was needed (still have
>just four mats - about 7.5 sq. meters). Simplicity and natural materials...
>
>I'd very much appreciate it then, if things could be left as they are but
>complimented by an "oil" section - please do not mix them. Dave B's
>original information is, in itself, a mine of traditional-method information
>on our slowly disappearing, originally no-oil, craft. I would kindly suggest
>that this be respected... Now, I've said my piece (peace) and will go back
>to my workshop... Computer desk... Pressroom...
>
>With respect to all [Baren] printers out there,

Dave S

***

Dear Dave S--

I've been a "lurker" since early 1999 simply because the Baren was dedicated
to hanga type printing, or so the regulars at that time stated when we oily
characters occasionally talked too much.  It is not very comfortable either
being told politely to shut up or being referred to as a "lurker"--one of
those sets of eyes out there in the dark beyond the campfire.  So, from time
to time I do feel obligated barge into the camplight and post something
truly stupid or otherwise insensitive in front of God and everybody.

The only real point of this truly stupid posting is to ask what you meant by
"starting your craft out" when there were no rollers, presses, oil-based
inks, etc.?  You must be referring to Baren-related stuff?  You've not
forgotten the Western tradition that goes back, probably before Durer?  I'm
sure even his minions used rollers/brayers.

As for the oily/water-based debate, it's great so long as it's kept civil.
Controversy and creativity must be Siamese twins.  I continue to read the
Baren mostly because people who don't do hanga keep slipping in techniques
and comments.  This must dismay you old regulars.  I don't like feeling like
a weed choking out the planted hanga garden, but it is gratifying to see
other weeds.

However, I think I'd lose interest in the Baren if the oily/brayer-type
comments were segregated to their own little closet.  If  I could find a
water-based ink that rolled out to my satisfaction, I'd probably use it.
Hanga comments are interesting.  I, for one, admire watercolor transparency
in water-based printing but don't care for water-based inks that are as
opaque as gouache, even if they can be rolled out.

As for craft and simplicity, you can certainly paint every block with a
brush if it pleases you--for me it would be torture, like endlessly redoing
a painting, something nighmares are made of.  And, pressing on a baren right
now would pop open my carpal tunnel release scar within a couple days.  It
may always be that way, and for me it would be truly stupid to try to print
with a baren. I'll bet the small press I use takes up considerably less
space than a PC and its peripherals, and it cost a heck of a lot less than a
good baren.

Anyway, it certainly is easier sorting through postings that pertain to a
technique I don't happen to be using--now--than sorting through endless HTML
and MIME postings.

Best regards,

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Michelle Morrell
jmmorrell#gci.net
MichelleMorrell.com
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^








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From: "Fatima Ferreira" <fami#clix.pt>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:25:32 +0100
Subject: [Baren 22129] Re: Baren Digest V24 #2291
Hi Janet:

Be wellcome.

I hope all bareners will like to learn some portuguese printmaking and 
woodblock terms, maybe one day they may come and visit our Printmaking 
Association in Lisbon...  right now, still 99% copper and zinc 
users...., but in the future, we never know...
"Why do you have complete english?"

what do you mean by this ? sometimes my english is not so good, I am 
sorry.

Best wishes,

Fatima






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From: Barbara Mason <barbaramason45#yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 22130] waterbased ink 


Michelle,
Have you tried the Akua Kolor intaglio ink? I think you will find
it rolls out well. Not exactly like oil but works well. It is a
little thinner. Being a honey based ink it has wonderful
properties, it never skins over and if you want it looser you can
warm your work with a lamp. It stays workable for days. I think
you will like it. They joys of water clean up are just great. I
do use baby oil to really clean the solar plates, but think you
can clean up metal plates with water only. This ink is permanent
when it dries. www.waterbasedinks.com I hate to tell you they
were printing woodblock before anyone thought of a roller.
Woodblock came to Japan from China about 650 AD. I did a lot of
research on this for a talk I gave a year or so ago.

Not that this matters in the general scheme of things, but just
thought I would mention it.

I think most early European printers used a dauber, a roll of
leather, to put ink onto their plates.

I think it would be really interesting to get a bit more history
in the discussions, I was surprised when I was researching my
talk how few sources there really were. They all seemed to take
their information from the same sources and sometimes it was
verbatum. So I would really like some history that is a little
more unique and maybe from different view points. The why of the
way things were done is always fascinating. Maybe there are some
books in Japanese that have more, the ones in English just seem
to parrot each other with not many new or exciting tales. Or
maybe I just did not find the right history books....Is this one
of those posts no one wants to read????Hummmmmmm.That Yahoo tip
of the day is haunting me. Best to all,
Barbara



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From: "David Stones" <stones#mb.i-chubu.ne.jp>
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:53:56 +0900
Subject: [Baren 22131] Re: The craft of mokuhanga... 

Dear Michelle,

Re: "The only real point of..." question. My actual wording was "adopted"
craft... as I came into it (quite by chance) after living in Japan. Through
this contact, I've come to know bits and pieces of mokuhanga history - that
compliment what I learnt in England - but I'm definitely no historian on the
subject. As Barbara has said though, the original "mokuhanga method" as used
in Japan - was developed in China and then, later, further improved here
into multi-colour woodblock prints... BUT, my main point, was that the
method was developed without the general knowledge (by those in Japan, as
it was a closed country) of rollers, presses etc. even though they did exist
"outside".

The printers of the day just used the materials and methods that
they had available... as we Brits had utilized old, wooden, cider presses,
thick ink etc. they, on the other side of the globe, turned to bamboo,
cherry blocks and Japanese painting pigments...

Similar to what Barbara mentioned, before "our" rollers, "leather inking
balls stuffed with horsehair or feathers" (quote from Typography for
Students, 1958) were used. I actually printed from an all-metal "Columbia"
press - but with rubber hand-rollers inked very oily from old, split, litho
stones - to print wood-type posters in my apprenticeship... pressure was
exerted by pulling a handle toward you while wedging one leg against the
bed-rail and pulling with both hands to exact the 4-ton pressure (estimated
by college teacher, no scientific foundation)... the huge, eagle-shaped,
counterweight was so heavy that it often pulled me back to crunch against
the press. This developed good shoulders though - which I now use for the
more "gentle" Baren.

Ah, history... youth?

Dave S



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From: JMartin906#aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:33:33 EDT
Subject: [Baren 22132] 18a 



Hey, Thanks, Mike Lyon, for the e-mail telling me I could sign up for 18a.

How do I get off the waiting list for 18?  Being on 18a will be sufficient 
for me.

Suzi Sutherland-Martin



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End of Baren Digest V24 #2293
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