[Baren} the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Wednesday, 12 July 2000 Volume 12 : Number1073 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:50:08 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10389] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1072--Jumo-Art Marco, even though you do work in Computer Graphics, you are also an artist. Doesn't this Juma-Art thing bother you a little? I remember sitting across from you at Graham's workshop and hearing your philosophy on your own work, and was--well, I was impressed. Do we want to mass produce art this way--the Juma-Art way? Do you like that? I think the whole concept is pretty ugly in that greedy way which has replaced good worksmanship. Take a look at how houses are being built now with all the synthetics that people are turning out to be so allergic to, and look at how bent the plastics get after 20 years. I'm thinking of the fake beams in the ceiling of my parents' house, and the flooring under the carpeting which was nothing but synthetic "whatever"--not even a decent floor made of wood. So art is going that way too, all facade and no guts. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Salsbury Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:38:18 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10390] Lost? So Gram, Do you think I can't read a map? I am never lost! I always know which continent I am on. I do however take the scenic route quite frequently, so as to thoroughly check out the area I am passing through. I have even found an interesting thing or two that would bare a second look, but unfortunately I have misplaced the scenic route I took the first time. :-) The Northwest is an area I hope to get to sometime just to visit with no specific destination in mind. If I ever wander in I'll see if I can find the scenic route to your studio. Do you know if there is a catalogue of the show at the museum? As I know I won't get that far off track on either of these two trips I wouldn't mind investing in an arm chair tour. Sue ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10391] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1072--Jumo-Art >Marco, even though you do work in Computer Graphics, you are also an >artist. Doesn't this Juma-Art thing bother you a little? I remember sitting >across from you at Graham's workshop and hearing your philosophy on your >own work, and was--well, I was impressed. So art is going that way >too, all facade and >no guts. Gayle, Why do I think that Marco is playing the devils advocate here....!!!! Having been associated with him for two boot camps now..... I'm sure he is toying with us. Aren't you? "all facade and no guts" wonderful definition Gayle, it tops "fluff". I sent the company an e-mail as follows. "Just slightly exaggerated ....... See the truth here.... http://members.home.net/gscholes/Giclee.html Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:57:29 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10392] Re: Lost? >So Gram, This was a nickname that I have not heard for 30 years ???? If you are psychic then why do you need a telephone? >Do you know if there is a catalogue of the show at the museum? As I know I >won't get that far off track on either of these two trips I wouldn't mind >investing in an arm chair tour. > Sue, Sorry they do not have a catalogue.... Have a good trip..... Graham ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:33:51 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10393] Re: There is a new technology ! Maria writes: " I could tell the woodcut because, hey! I'm a printmaker, but to someone that doesn't know what it is supposed to look like...no difference." I know that Dave puts on a little embossed baren seal ( 1/2 the size of a dime) which is "blind" printed on the lower corner of his prints. It is almost undetectable unless you are looking for it.....but I suppose even this in time would be easy pickings for the new sophisticated technologies. The technologies will come and go and service a certain part of the population while there is a demand....others will stay true to real craftmanship and hand-pulled works.....but in a way I am more concerned with the public itself rather than the technology....do the buying public really care ? If they can have a good repro to hang in their wall at a cost savings....will they ? Do they really care ? Maybe for some a repro is all that is needed to satisfy their artistic hunger. Like anything, some will opt for the fakes and some will only settle for an artists true touch. Let's not assume every giclee buyer is an innocent victim of the greedy. There is quite a business outhere and many artists who have joined forces with the new technology, all you have to do is look at some of the catalogs available and see the growing trend.......giclees, canvas backed stuff, all sold as limited editions....etc....but these artists also have to make a living, their original art work is already there as proof of their skills and hardwork, if someone wants to purchase a repro of it, why should they say no ? There are bills to pay, college loans, mortgages, etc, etc.......except for the priviliged and the nobility, it has always been tough for artists to make a living exclusively on their work........ for many success, recognition and monetary gain comes late in life or after their death. Why don't we put a spin on it.....instead look at it on a positive note...."my work is so good and so popular that someone wants to make millions of copies and make it available for the enjoyment of the masses"..........flattery! Which among us has turned down (or would...) a lucrative offer (I mean 5-6 figures) to have their work reproduced in this fashion ? I think someone here at Baren said it best.....make the best prints you can, make prints that you like and share your passion with others. If your work is good enough it will stand on it's own and will attract an audience. Don't worry about what others are doing or the current trends, be enthusiastic about your work, be the best that you can be and reach for the sky...........cut & print. thanks...Julio {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) {:-) ...... ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:46:33 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10394] Re: Lost? Gosh, I wish they did have a catalogue - as that is really an excellent exhibit. I had to make everyone wait while I took notes on the handling of some of the prints. And made sketches of a couple that I found completely irresistable. Not to be missed if you are anywhere close to Victoria! And, Sharon, I like the scenic route too! I might as well like it, as I seem to take it quite often. :-) Wanda Sue wrote: > >Do you know if there is a catalogue of the show at the museum? > Sorry they do not have a catalogue.... > Have a good trip..... > Graham ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:09:19 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10395] Re: Lost? Oops, I meant Sue (not Sharen) my fingers got lost - took the scenic route. :-) Wanda ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:19:48 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10396] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1072--Jumo-Art Gayle wrote, > Do we want to mass produce art this way--the Juma-Art way? Do you like that? I think the whole concept is pretty ugly in that greedy way which has replaced good worksmanship. < I think you are confusing the making of art , and the reproduction of it. I believe this printing technique is strictly for copying art, and has been primarily used for reproductions of classical, famous, or popular works of art originally created in a different medium. If the purpose of selling these is to dupe the buyer into thinking that he has an original, then this is wrong. If the purpose is to provide an affordable reproduction of an art work that the buyer likes but is unable to afford in its real state, and there are no copyright infringements, then this is o.k. And if the person or company making a business out of supplying reproductions for th= e market can improve their technical capabilities so that the object looks real, then so much the better. Nothing wrong there. Greed was mentioned. In a word, isn't that what all of us are doing by making multiples? If true art is our strict ethic, then why make multiples of it? Isn't that motivated by greed? Why not make one work o= f art and move on to the next creation? That's what painters do. Why d= o we want to then reproduce it if not for the ability to sell the same work of art over and over again? Get as much mileage out of it as possible. Graham for example sells prints, plain prints, matted prints, framed prints, just about any way you like em, he'll sell them that way. He limits the edition to further "enhance" the value of the print. Then he takes the blocks from which he made the print and creates "matched sets" which he also sells at a higher price. Graham has learned to get as muc= h mileage out of his work as is possible, because that's how you survive as= an artist. And if you can't sell enough work, give workshops on how others can make it for themselves and make a few bucks there. "You do what you gotta do" I remember seeing somewhere on his site. True. = To condemn a technique of reproduction because it might be used for unethical purposes is too broad in scope. Condemn only the mis-use of i= t, and applaud the improvements made in the technique itself. Gary KC ------------------------------ From: barbara patera Date: Tue, 11 Jul 100 13:37:47 Pacific Daylight Time Subject: [Baren 10397] Re: reproductions Gary wrote that there is nothing wrong with reproductions as a means for people to have an inexpensive copy of something they like.... I fully agree.... However, the Juma gallery... among many others... does not have "Inexpensive Reproductions ". The artists showing their work in that gallery are asking many hundreds of dollars for editions of 500 copies.... ( I really do think that "Chutzpah" is the correct word here).....But.... Are they duping the public????Does the public care?? Perhaps people are just content to pay for something that already has the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval"(someone has already said that this is "good " art otherwise it would not be commercially reproduced). Or possibly these things are purchased because they match a couch, or are the right size. These are things I ponder when visiting web sites, galleries and art shows that feature overpriced copies. And ,if it weren't for the tacit assurance that these copies will apreciate in value, I would probably decide that most of the people buying these works are getting just what they want....something that is safe. Barbara P. ------------------------------ From: "Rudolf Stalder" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:00:57 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10398] print- exchange print-exchange scheme : A simple way to organize the print-exchange could be to split the participants into two groups if the total number passes 30, group I including e.g. the participants, 1,3,5, ... group II the participants 2,4,6, ... . ( If there were 61 or more participants three groups would be formed etc..) Such a scheme would allow a unlimited number of participants, each contributing between 16 and 31 prints to a single exchange. Rudolf Stalder (http://www.rst-art.com) ------------------------------ From: Studio Dalwood Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:38:44 +1000 Subject: [Baren 10399] Exchanges Hi Everyone I've been listening to all the enthusiasm about joining exchanges. Its very gratifying to know that there are so many keen people out there. I had not intended announcing these for another 10 days or so but thought it might be better to say something now. Escpecially when reading all the calls for Dave to extend or duplicate the current baren exchange. Those people who are on Print Australia know that I am currently writing the html for the next Print Australia exchanges. Its being tested at the moment and following a week's pre-signup (starting Monday) for PrintAus people will be announced to the world generally, including here. There are three forthcoming exchanges: one open themed one for AUstralians only; one open to all and themed 'letterforms' according to what was discussed here some time ago, and the third will run slightly differently. It will have unlimited participants on a 'send in 16 get 15 back basis', theme is 'where I live' also as we discussed here recently. I have two co-ordinators already and will require a third for the letterforms one. Darrell has already mentioned that there will be new exchange forthcoming on the printmakers list, shortly. That gives you four alternatives to choose from, (three for non-aussies), before you all lynch poor Dave. *grin* On another note, I have been contacted by a friend in Sydney who is interested in showing some of the exchange prints that I have in a TAFE gallery. I will be showing him my #5 Junin Toiro set of prints at a meeting soon. I have no further details than this at the moment, but thought you might like to know that this is a possibility. I'll let you know when we have nutted out the details. Before you ask, a TAFE is a college of advanced education - the technical alternative to uni. Trying to help here Josephine ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:48:37 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10400] Re: reproductions Barb wrote, > The artists showing their work in that gallery are asking many hundreds of dollars for editions of 500 copies.... ( I really do think that "Chutzpah" is the correct word here).....But....< and Barb, I'd have to agree with you there. "Editions" of a reproduction is ludicrous! Here is exactly where I can see an "edition" being valid for hand pulled art, but not for mechanically reproduced art. I'm not sure I can focus in on the exact definition of that line, but I_sense_ that there is one there. To set up an edition of hand pulled art is just different than loading the in-tray on the computer printer. And "chutzpah" is not the term that would come to mind, at least not in strong enough terms, to describe someone who would call the days computer run an "edition". "Cajones" come to mind! But so as not to bore you further, I recap my earlier statement, that _how_ a technology is used can always be judged with ethics, but that it is generally a good thing when a technology is improved. It enhances the possibilities for further good to come of it. Gary ------------------------------ From: Artsmadis@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:17:33 EDT Subject: [Baren 10401] Re: print- exchange Would the exchange work with 2 groups of 20 next time? There could be 2 themes and artists could participate in one or the other group. This would accomodate 10 more people than the current exchange. Also the total prints required from each participant would be 21 instead of 31. Dave Bull will have the numbers for how many people put their names down on the sign-up form after the initial sign-up was concluded, as he suggested in Baren 10361. Darrell ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:49:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10403] Re: print- exchange Darrell wrote July 11th >Would the exchange work with 2 groups of 20 next time? There could be 2 >themes and artists could participate in one or the other group. This would Graham wrote July 10th There's an easy solution to the problem ...... Do two exhanges ..... two themes giving bareners a choice ..... and the edition size would be 20. This could be offered at the same time (two lists) or simply space them appart by a week. It somewhat cuts down on the work load of the co-ordinators and distributing the work over more bods. This could be important from a cost point of view for some members..... I have heard that to get 30 prints some bareners are having to print nearly twice that many to meet the quota. Maybe a 30 and a 15 edition size would be of interest. Any any rate the council..... who ever they are ... (who are they anyway?) can arrive at a figure that would suit the members. Interesting that we both came up with the same idea. Graham ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:39:55 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10404] Re: reproductions Does the public know????? Good point Barbara P. There's no consumer guides for prints! When you go to buy a car or a washing machine you do a little research. You want to know how long they're going to last etc, best buys, you know,...with a work of art it's totally emotion,..unless you have enough bucks to buy a known investment,.... Maybe a guide to let people know what they're buying,....just because a gallery calls something a print,..is it? The real print dealers in the world really pretty much scoff at the people selling these reproductions as prints,.....but used car salesmen are the world over,..except they aren't always selling used cars! ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V12 #1073 *****************************