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Message 1
From: Cucamongie # aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:19:33 -0500
Subject: [Baren 23576] to bevel or not to bevel
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Dave, I have the utmost respect for you and your expertise. However, I have to say that the 4 or 5 Japanese woodblock teachers who I have studied with (which include Japanese master printer Yasu Shibata) said to cut w/the beveled side against the wood. Yasu actually held the knife straight up and down, so that the bevel of the knife created the beveled cut on the wood. (hope that makes sense)
happy carving & printing-
Sarah

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Message 2
From: Jsf73 # aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:25:24 EST
Subject: [Baren 23577] Re: Corian vs. Resingrave
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In a message dated 12/12/03 11:10:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
troyinformer@yahoo.com writes:


> Hi,
>
> Was just curious if anyone here has engraved on both
> Corian and Resingrave and if so, do you have a
> preference? Does corian cut cleaner and finer than
> resingrave?
>
> Also are there any new alternatives to Corian? Corian
> was invented in 1966 and just wondered if anything new
> came out since then that works well for engraving, or
> is Boxwood still the best?

Hi Troy,

You should save up the questions and post them in a single post. That way we
dont have people getting dozens of emails in a day.

John Center has used all those materials for engraving and should be able to
offer his opinion.

As for myself, I used 4 pieces of resingrave this summer, of which 3 were 2x3
inches. The other is 4x6. The small pieces were for learning my engraving
vocabulary as Simon Brett calls it. I just practiced textures and various line
width cuts. The 4x6 block I used to do a print of an great grey owl.

I found the resingrave was crap. It chips very easily and your tool seems to
bind and dig in deeper and then chip.

I also have many small test pieces of corian solid surface material. I found
it much better. Harder but less chipping. Very fine lines and textures are
easy, but I cannot get them to print just right yet. I got them for free. There
are dozens of solid surface material out now that are basically the same as
corian.... just ask countertop makers in your area for some scraps to try.

The best I have used is end grain maple.... no comparison. I am using 50 year
old blocks or older... They were very rough and had to be surfaced but they
cut like a dream. They hold fine detail and the stipple much easier. I wont use
anything else now unless I do a large engraving where wood would be too
costly, then I will use corian. But seeing as I am now working on a few bookplates
the maple is perfect.

Hope that helps you.

John Furr

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Message 3
From: FurryPressII # aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:36:22 EST
Subject: [Baren 23578] Re: Corian vs. Resingrave
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for a engraving with no text or letterforms if find maple to be better than
corian with a couple of exceptions when i have letters i perfer corain
because it does not bruse like maple can. and then there is the size question
maple only comes in sizes up to 10 by 12 inches and is rather costly. Corian can
be any size you want. It does seem to engrave well if your tools are sharp
and some tools do seem to work better than others in corian. It does not
splinter or chip like resingrave. John Furr the indian on my jacket was
engraved on corian. One of the other problems with corian is that it is much harder
than wood so you can generally engrave about as half as much as you could in
wood before your hands hurt.

One of the other plus for corian is that it can be printed equally well as a
relief print or as an intaligo print. With all the plus and miness i
generally like corian.

Even if you buy corian retail it is about 1/3 the cost of maple and if you
are lucky you can get it for less as scrap from a counter top maker.

john of the furry press

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Message 4
From: "Robert Canaga"
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:35:36 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23579] Re: to bevel or not to bevel
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This is also my experience! The idea of holding the knife at such and odd
"leaned to the left " angle to cut is completely foreign. I was taught to
cut straight up or just to the right so you can see the line. The wood is
moved up not compressed.
RC

Dave, I have the utmost respect for you and your expertise. However, I have
to say that the 4 or 5 Japanese woodblock teachers who I have studied with
(which include Japanese master printer Yasu Shibata) said to cut w/the
beveled side against the wood. Yasu actually held the knife straight up and
down, so that the bevel of the knife created the beveled cut on the wood.
(hope that makes sense)
happy carving & printing-
Sarah

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Message 5
From: Barbara Mason
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 23580] carving
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OK, You guys...now I am stressed.

Next time someone asks me which side goes to the line I think I will say "it depends",
Ha.
Thanks to all who answered, I guess I will keep doing it the way I am, flat side against the line. I seem to be getting control of it, finally. Nothing like the real cavers of course. I will tell my students both reasons and let them decide!
Best to all,
Barbara


---------------------------------

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Message 6
From: David Bull
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:23:52 +0900
Subject: [Baren 23581] Re: to bevel or not to bevel
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> Dave, I have the utmost respect for you and your expertise. However, I
> have to say that the 4 or 5 Japanese woodblock teachers who I have
> studied with (which include Japanese master printer Yasu Shibata) said
> to cut w/the beveled side against the wood.

They do indeed mostly cut that way here these days, and that picture
from the Toshi Yoshida book that somebody mentioned yesterday is a
perfect example of this.

Can I explain what is going on without sounding too pedantic? Maybe not,
but I'll take a chance ...

The way that carvers hold the knife went through a major change over the
course of the past few generations. In the old days - I'm speaking of
the time when designers designed, carvers carved, and printers printed -
the carving was done with the knife always pointed to the 'outside' of
the body. This might be difficult to explain, but I'll try. (This
explanation is all for a right-hander)

The knife was gripped in the fist, blade downwards, thumb on top of the
short handle. Flat side of the blade was on the left, bevel on the
right. The hand was then tilted so that the thumb moved over to the
left, and the point of the blade to the right ... tilted far enough so
that the point of the blade could be seen _outside_ the hand, _not_
inside. The carver then leaned over his hand, inserted the blade into
the wood so that the flat side was against the line to be kept, and then
began the cut, drawing the blade towards himself. He could thus
_clearly_ see the cutting edge of the blade as it moved along the line,
_and_ the waste wood was the part that became compressed, not the
reserved wood. This was how all the old ukiyo-e etc. was cut ... and it
shows!

Now ... enter the 'sosaku hanga-ka' ('creative printmakers') the men who
did it all themselves, designing, carving and printing. These guys just
grabbed the knife and stuck it into the wood. Because they weren't
trained, they did that the 'natural' way - the same way I would wager
every one of you is doing it - with the hand tilted the _other_ way, the
point of the blade to the _left_, right down in front of your nose.
This is the way illustrated in the Toshi Yoshida book on page 41. Please
excuse me this next statement - you know where I'm coming from - but
this method is wrong, wrong, wrong. Do all the current woodblock
practitioners/teachers care? Not a whit. Does it make any difference in
their work? Probably not a bit. Do they even _know_ about the old
method I have just told you about? Almost certainly not.

I will stand by my statement that the flat side of the blade _must_ be
against the reserved lines when cutting fine lines in hard wood! For
these cases, the traditional system is not only the best way, but the
only way.

But don't take my word for it ... get out your knife and _try_ this! You
will find it extremely difficult to control at first, and probably won't
even believe that people could carve that way, but hang in there for a
seven-year apprenticeship, and then, without a doubt, you will come over
to my side! (Then there will be _two_ of us!)

:-)

Dave

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Message 7
From: Charles Morgan
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 04:02:35 -0800
Subject: [Baren 23582] Re: to bevel or not to bevel
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Hmmmm ... Having seen quite a bit of Toshi Yoshida's work, I somehow find
it hard to believe that he was doing it "wrong, wrong, wrong" ... if his
work is "wrong", then let me be "wrong". I believe he did a little more
than a "seven year apprenticeship". As for fineness of lines, his work
speaks for itself. And given their attitudes toward proper training and
technique, I somehow doubt that he and most of his generation "just grabbed
the knife and stuck it in the wood", or that "they weren't trained" ...
surely you jest ... ;-)}}}}

Try this experiment with a flat chisel. Try cutting a fine shaving off the
surface of a plank in two different ways. First try it with the bevel side
down toward the wood. Then try it with the bevel side away from the wood.
You will have far greater control with the bevel side down. With the bevel
side up, you will find the chisel tends to gouge and dig in, rather than
peel a fine shaving. You have MUCH greater control with the bevel side
toward the wood, toward what is to be kept, the flat side throwing off the
chip. Talk to a good carpenter, or an old cabinet maker who actually does
things by hand ... and then try it yourself.

But one more time, it looks like a case of "whatever works for you is best"
...

Cheers ........ Charles

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