Baren Digest Friday, 4 July 2003 Volume 24 : Number 2291 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "carol wagner" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:16:56 -0700 Subject: [Baren 22105] Mea culpas extended Dear Sharon, Oh dear, here I go breaking that commandment of "Never complain, never explain" for the second time in a baren post! Please excuse my ignorance, but I believe you have profoundly misunderstood my unfortunate post! I never meant to imply , as you put it!!! My quotation of Julio was not an attempt to imply any sort of 'authority" - I simply thought that his plea for additions to the encyclopedia was a good one, and was not intended as a criticism of anyone, in any manner. As to my perhaps ill advised reference to 'equity' in the matter of oil vs. water ,this too you have taken completely out of context. I was simply attempting to respond to a number of previous postings on the subject. I truly feel that you have taken offense where none was meant. I am sorry to post this to the list, but was unable to send it to you privately as it came back as 'undeliverable... Please be assured that any posting I do on this forum is never in the spirit of enmity to anyone, that I profoundly respect each and every member on this list, and that I have no desire to create friction . I have always understood that baren forum was inclusive as to woodcut mediums (including linoleum), and naively assumed that I too could use terminology that others had used in a quasi-playful manner when referring to the different type of inks used in printing...but then I am a relative new comer, I have not had the privilege of personal bonding with a number of you, and frankly, my dears, I can be a bloody fool at times...esp. when I indulge in irony, of which I am far too fond. And to John Furr, please do not leave us without your voice! Carol in scaramento ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:24:36 -0500 Subject: [Baren 22106] Re: Exchange #18 size - again At 09:27 AM 7/3/2003 -0800, Michelle Morrell wrote: >I assume you mean "any image that will conform to the image size of 8 >square inches," give or take 5%. Exactly right! >So, maybe can I assume that using a smaller block and an image smaller than >8 square inches is also okay No. The image should cover an area of approximately 8 square inches or 50 square centimeters, but can be any shape you like as long as it fits on chuban size paper. An image of significantly less area, say a 1 square inch postage stamp would NOT be appropriate. - -- Mike Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon#mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:33:50 -0500 Subject: [Baren 22107] Re: hanga regatration question At 01:32 PM 7/3/2003 -0400, Charlie wrote: >A newbe question about hanga regatration! Sence the reg marks are cut into >the woodblock, how do you reg a small image on a large sheet as in exchage >18, do you use a large block and cut all of the excess out or use a >smaller block that is closer to the size of the image ( so as not to waste >hardwood) and then use a reg system to print?? Hi, Charlie... I would carve the kento several inches from the edge of the image in order to center the image in the paper (but you can place the image anywhere on the paper you like, of course)... Some people carve the kento into a separate "L" shaped block which is as wide as their margin and then fit smaller carved blocks into the corner of the "L". Personally I think that introduces a larger margin for error, but I have printed that way myself from time to time... There are infinite other ways, too! - -- Mike Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon#mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:51:59 -0700 Subject: [Baren 22108] Re: hanga regatration question Mike wrote:> > Hi, Charlie... > > I would carve the kento several inches from the edge of the image > in order > to center the image in the paper (but you can place the image anywhere on > the paper you like, of course)... > > Some people carve the kento into a separate "L" shaped block which is as > wide as their margin and then fit smaller carved blocks into the > corner of > the "L". Personally I think that introduces a larger margin for > error, but > I have printed that way myself from time to time... > I use the L registration board method and, just to present a differing point, personally I think it _eliminates_ error. When carving kentos on separate blocks, the transfer and carving of the kento must be exact on every block, thereby error is introduced at the carving of every block's separate kento. However, when using the registration board or L-block, the kento is exact already and does not vary from block to block! If the drawing was transfered to the blocks using the same registration board, regisration will be perfecto. I really started registering this way to conserve wood since I use some of that precious cherry that Barbara likes so much...are you ready for your next "hit" Barbara? I have more...I have lots more!!! And speaking of registration boards, who inherited mine!? I left it at Mike's studio...I have others so enjoy it! Maria PS I'm assessing that we are all suffering from post-baren-summit/hug/love-syndrome, also known as pbshls. A known cure for pbshls is to read the Baren archives, browse through the Baren website and member's websites, and download a couple of those yummy books from the Baren library. It is then we realize the value of what we have. ------------------------------ From: "Andy English" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:38:25 +0100 Subject: [Baren 22109] Oil vs Water I may be speaking out of turn here. I am not a freqent poster but I am an avid reader and the BAREN digest, at its best, brightens my day and teaches and informs me. I am immensely saddened to see this topic of oil vs water continue unabated. It reminds me of a certain friction between some end grain and some side grain printmakers in Britain who used to get on each others nerves, not knowing when to stop and simply print. In fact the reason that I joined BAREN was to break that mould and become an end grain printmaker who was informed about -and occasionally practiced side grain cutting. Sleeping with the enemy, as it were. I have thoroughly enjoyed sleeping with you all. I am sure that I am speaking out of place to encourage us to get back to our printing and concerning ourselves with the finer points of the process(es) and a positiveand critical appreciation of our products that moves us on with our own practice. No great loss, I know but I think that I will go for good if productive discussion descends into unproductive sniping. However, I do want to end on a positive note so I will now disclose the obvious solution. Oil and water do mix under the right conditions to form an emulsion so I propose that the next exchange should be printed exclusively in mayonnaise or a similar commodity. Love and Peace to you all, no matter how oily or watery you might be. ------------------------------ From: "Fatima Ferreira" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:47:18 +0100 Subject: [Baren 22110] Re: a woodblock glossary Hello Mary : I am Fatima, from Portugal, usually lurcking for long time untill now... learning a lot with you all... having my first woodblock workshop last week in our Printmakers Association in Lisbon with a Japanese printmaker, Hiroshi Maruyama. I usually work on copper or zinc, maybe now I will try woodblock... Anyway ... I think this is a very good idea ! I can help with portuguese ! you may count on me with portuguese terms, I am very interested on this idea. Thank you to all bareners for everything. Dave Bull, Mike Lyon and all the others. You gave me lots of good things even when I don't participate at discussions and you don't know I am there... Thank you. > wood (English), bois (Franais), madeira (Portugus) > the part of a tree between the center and the bark--in woodblock printing, > used to make the printing block - - a parte da ‡rvore entre o centro e a casca - na xilogravura Ž utilizada como matriz ou seja, para fazer o bloco para a impress‹o. >From: "Mary Krieger" > Greetings all, > > Why don't we work collectively on a glossary to be added to the > encyclopedia. I checked the site out and under 'Dictionary' we have a good > selection of the Japanese terms (some even with audio files) contributed by > David Bull. This leaves the field wide open for all the other languages of > the world. > > For the English speakers there are all those specialized uses for common > terms like 'ink knife' that puzzle everyone at first and for all of you who > revel in more than one language how do you say woodblock in Portuguese, > German, Spanish or.... > > I would be happy to work on compiling and editing if you would help me by > suggesting terms and or definitions, approving and criticizing as we go. > > I nominate for our first term.... > > wood (English), bois (Francais) > the part of a tree between the center and the bark--in woodblock printing, > used to make the printing block > > Let the games begin!! > > Mary Krieger > Winnipeg MB Canada > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 15:20:49 -0500 Subject: [Baren 22111] Re: hanga regatration question At 12:51 PM 7/3/2003 -0700, you wrote: >And speaking of registration boards, who inherited mine!? I left it at >Mike's studio...I have others so enjoy it! I have it! I have it! It is down on my roll-top desk waiting packing and postage... If I ever get away from HTML programming exchange stuff long enough to get to the Post Office, that is! - -- Mike Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon#mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:41:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 22112] Re: hanga regatration question Oh gosh, Mike, PLEASE!!! do not waste your time/money/postage/did I mention time! on shipping that thing! I think I stole the particle-board from a neighbor's trashed desk and cut the "kento" strips off the end. I was joking, keep it in the studio or have your karate school use it for training jaaaaaaaaaa-yaaaa!!! Maria > > At 12:51 PM 7/3/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >And speaking of registration boards, who inherited mine!? I left it at > >Mike's studio...I have others so enjoy it! > > I have it! I have it! It is down on my roll-top desk waiting > packing and > postage... If I ever get away from HTML programming exchange stuff long > enough to get to the Post Office, that is! > > -- Mike ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 15:48:39 -0500 Subject: [Baren 22113] EXCHANGE 18(a) SALON SIGN-UP READY !!! For those of you who didn't make it into #18 (and for those in #18 and on the waiting list who would like to participate in 18(a)): Sign-up is now in progress for the 18(a) Salon de Refuse at http://www.barenforum.org/exchange/exchange_sign-up.html -- if you already signed up for #18 (regardless whether you were wait-listed or not) and you also want to be in #18(a) you need to sign-up again! As usual, participants in #17 will have to take a back seat to new-comers, but participants in #18 (only the first 30, not the wait-listers) will have to take a back seat to those who are wait-listed or otherwise aren't among the first 30 in exchange #18. So get your fingers ready and sign-up for 18(a) at http://www.barenforum.org/exchange/exchange_sign-up.html - -- Mike Mike Lyon mailto:mikelyon#mlyon.com http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr." Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:47:30 -0700 Subject: [Baren 22114] Water. oil and politics There's something familiar about the exchanges about water and oil based ink and printing. I recall how my students laughed at me when I introduced Asian printmaking and said, "This is from a 'water' culture, and the West is an 'oil' culture." I deserved it, I guess. There's something more important, though, overriding this issue. I hope I'm not setting myself up now like I did then. I'll try, anyway. It's not going to be on the test, I hope. I've mentioned Walter Benjamin before, and how he said reproduction stripped the original of its "aura" and this changed the role of art from being an object of esthetic value to being also an object of political value. You have to read his "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction." It's on the Web somewhere. I got the point, and sometimes I see it demonstrated--like the time I heard that refugees were holding up artworks as shields, believing they wouldn't be as likely to be shot. Were it not for photo reproductions, we wouldn't be educated to associate art objects with economic, social and political positions. How am I doing? Then, a funny thing happened right in the school where I was teaching. It began with a growing awareness that the painting faculty typically thought of printmaking as a poor cousin to their art and craft. This would be reflected in all kinds of ways -- budget, space, hiring priorities, and even student-to-student confrontations. Next, and this happened off campus in the real world (where I'm role-playing a 'public intellectual'), I saw a similar thing happen in a business setting. It's hard to see the analogy, but here goes. This business was a startup, a kind of cooperative artist, crafts person and designer strip mall sort of thing, in one big building. Things got off to a good start, but as the War ensued, and the economy dipped, business was bad. So, like the artwork stripped of its aura, business was stripped of its meaning, i.e., money. So the doors opened to politics instead of the original idea. Bored, the members started finding things to complain about, and the rest is history. The business closed. It's gone. I was part of it. I saw how similar a work of art (like the Baren-list) can be stripped by some circumstance, lose its original reason for being, and how the doors open to another purpose. I'm not saying the oil/water thing is political. I don't know what it is, but it reminded me of the rift that technique (printmaking versus painting, oil versus water, litho versus digital printmaking, etc.) can open and how that rift harbors something else. It can be called political or some other kind of activity, but it's unlike the original purpose. I don't know how to conclude this, except I am grateful to be able to observe such a thing as we lurkers are observing. I hope this comparison is of value. There's something new happening, too, and that's that there may be a Walter Benjamin out there, now, writing "The Work of Art in the Age of Digital Reproduction." I wonder. - - Bill Professional Career Site: www.seanet.com/~ritchie First Emeralda Portal Site: www.artsport.com Bill's Virtual Art Gallery & e-commerce Site: www.myartpatron.com Experimental Free Site: www.freeyellow.com/members/videoprint Snail Mail: 500 Aloha #105, Seattle 98109 e-mail: ritchie#seanet.com ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII#aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:05:17 EDT Subject: [Baren 22115] Re: EXCHANGE 18(a) SALON SIGN-UP READY !!! Those who are in 18 should have to wait a week so that those who did not get in get a crack at it. Better yet just move those who are on the holding pen - -- waiting list over to 18a it would not be fair for someone who is in 18 to get in ahead of someone in the holding pen- waiting list. Lots of things we call art now adays were not considered art when they were made. Every thing from prehistoric fertility figs. alter pieces in churches, and even Japanese woodcuts were not considered art. Do not want to get into long winded debates on the subject. But most printmaking processes were commercial printing and not fine art when they were first printed. Only later were they considered fine art. For the first 300 years of western print making it was generally used as a reproductive art at best. Some were invented just for reproductive uses such as mezzotint. Others such as lithography were invented for commercial printing. Only as these printing process died as commercial printing did they become used as fine art (there is overlap in time when one was still used commercially but generally they were already way past there prime). I rather enjoy the craftsmanship of the commercial engravers, lithographers, and even the Japanese wood cuts used as commercial work. If you look at the wood cuts and wood engravings done in western art in the early 20th century you will notice a rejection of the craftsmanship of the work done just before in commercial printing I am glad we have passed that stage. In this I wish not to make a "political issue" just an observation. john "furrypress" Center ------------------------------ From: James G Mundie Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 18:09:28 -0400 Subject: [Baren 22116] Re: a woodblock glossary ~ oh no, dialects! Myron Turner wrote: > Here's an entry for the oil-based glossary... > > brayer (English) > A device for rolling ink onto the woodblock... Ah, yes, excellent. But if I may make one point - what is called a "brayer" in North America is usually referred to a "roller" in the UK (and in the US, too), and for all I know the Aussies may have yet another name for it ("gimblynaller"? ;-D). So, it might be a good idea as this project progresses (don't worry, Mike) to take a survey of the terms that we may all take for granted. Somebody in one part of the world (or next door) may have an entirely different name - even within the same language family - for the same item. It would be great to include as much 'local flavor' as possible. ["'Bullfrog'? That's a funny name. I'd've called it a 'chazwozzer'."] Yours in printmaking, Jim Mundie http://www.missioncreep.com/mundie/index.htm ------------------------------ From: "Fatima Ferreira" Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 01:04:03 +0100 Subject: [Baren 22117] Re: a woodblock glossary Hi: Thanks Mary and thanks Myron. Here is my translation to portuguese... brayer (English) rolo ou rolo de tintagem (portuguese) A device for rolling ink onto the woodblock; it consists of a cylinder--the roller--made of rubber, glycerin, or a composition material which is set into a handle and which comes in various hardnesses measured in units of "durometer"; for relief printing the roller is usually between 15 and 60 durometer, 15 being soft and 60 hard. The ink is taken up onto the brayer from an even film of ink spread onto an inking slab usually with the the brayer itself. Instrumento utilizado para distribuir a tinta sobre matriz, ou sobre a placa de madeira; consiste num cilindro - o rolo - feito de borracha, de glicerina ou de um material composto ao qual est‡ ligado a uma pega e que pode apresentar diversas durezas, medidas em unidades de "dur—metros"; para a gravura em relevo, o rolo tem, geralmente, entre 15 e 60 dur—metros, sendo 15 um valor considerado macio e 60 considerado duro. A tinta adere ao rolo a partir de uma fina camada espalhada usualmente sobre uma superf’cie lisa com o pr—prio rolo. ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V24 #2291 *****************************