Baren Digest Monday, 12 May 2003 Volume 23 : Number 2220 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jean Womack" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:08:34 -0700 Subject: [Baren 21475] Re: Baren Digest V23 #2219 Carol, how nice for you to go to Steeple Morden for a Baren 911 presentation. Now I am sorry I didn't get it together to put a print in that show. I certainly don't want to be accused of being disloyal because I was too busy to donate a print that month. However, I did make three 911 prints afterwards. One was the wrong orientation (horizontal instead of vertical) so it was rejected. I wonder why I didn't get the directions clear? One was the big print, but the fellow who organized it waited so long that I finally asked for my prints back: then after he got rid of my prints, he sent out the portfolio. One I finally sent out was the scenario presaging of the future catastrophes, where the restaurant chef or bartender poisons the airplane pilot with illegal drugs because he doesn't know the customer is a pilot and he has been told by some foreign agent that the pilot is a bad guy. So then the pilot puts on his jacket and goes to work, and then goes crazy up in the air, starts hallucinating and flies his plane right into a building. Sort of like the KKK of the 1960's tried to get the civil rights workers hooked on drugs. The KKK was in the police department in those days, so I am always suspicious of someone who is trying to get me to commit an illegal act, if I know it is illegal. And then I call the police and they say there's nothing they can do about it. Then there's the government, who used to put cigarettes in K-rations, for what reason? Maybe it was to kill parasites? They should have put condoms in there too. Anyway, I would love it if you would send me your presentation in email. Howard was talking about going to the Baren Summit, but I have to work. Gotta keep my priorities straight. I have a job, and I want to keep it. I have a career, actually. Nice thing to have finally, at my advanced age, after recovering from years of untreated bullemia. Now that my kid is a West Point graduate and an Army captain, (though he did not go to Iraq), it's a little harder for them to slander me and put me to work in the bars and try to take my property. But they are still trying. Thanks Mike for the advice on the wood. Jean Womack ------------------------------ Arhivist's Note: Message deleted, content unrelated to forum subject ------------------------------ From: Jsf73#aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:21:05 EDT Subject: [Baren 21477] Japanese print question Happy Mothers day all you moms out there. I know this isnt a print making question so it may not be appropriate to post here, if so I apologize. I have been to hanga.com and shogun gallery plus ebay looking for prints to purchase, but without owning reference materials I cannot tell what is a fair deal. I would like to start collecting some classic Moku hanga by the likes of Toshi and Hiroshi Yoshida and Kawase Hasui, and I am finding the prices vary wildly on such prints. I understand that the number of prints out there for some of these may be quite high or vaired, and that they were printed in different editions or times, some blocks being printed posthumously even. However, is there a good guideline to follow for prices? I would like nice unmounted prints, they could be a reprint of old blocks so long as it is a quality print meeting the standards of the original artist. Maybe David or others like Mike Lyons who have been in Japan can give me an idea of what a good print there goes for? I have seen prints on ebay advertised as: "From a group of prints collected by an elderly Japanese dealer. Previously a supplier to a couple of Asian art galleries (now out of business). Currently, his stock is being offered on Ebay only. " These prints look good in the scans and are described as being in excellent condition with no toning, tears, not mounted, full margins. Any broad guideline would be appreciated. Also, I will be bringing a minivan to Kansas City, so I will be able to drive several people on field trips, or to and from the airport. perhaps some people will be arriving at times close to each other and are willing to wait to share a ride? I already told Frank I plan on arriving in Kansas City saturday the 14th sometime in the afternoon since the studio isnt available until after 3:00 pm. I could pick people up at the airport if they were arriving around 4:00 pm or later. Let me know directly if I can help you out with a ride. John Furr ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 21478] Re: Japanese print question John, I think the answer is that if it is too cheap it is a restrike, done from the original or sometimes recarved blocks from the original drawings. These are fine work, and usually between $300 to $600. the Prints of Yoshida or Hasui done in their lifetime start at $1500 and go up to $10,000. A good place to see original work is Carolyn Staley Gallery in Seattle, this is a reputable gallery and her prices are standard in the industry. www.carolynstaleyprints.com . If you ask on ebay the seller will usually tell you that the work is a restrike and made to sell for the highest prices they can generate, or they say they don't know, usually this means they won't tell you. Ebay is actually bringing the prices down, as when people see what things have sold for they are unwilling to pay more. I think you could take a trip to Japan and buy work for what you could spend wrongly on ebay......just my idea. Both the galleries you mentioned, the shogun and the hanga have a fair reputation, I think, but I have not dealt with them personally. You can get on an email list from Carolyn Staley and see new work as it comes in, I enjoy this very much. I suggest more study before you buy. The library or a museum or a university art department can help, and there are some fine collectors here on baren who will no doubt also answer you.Good luck,Barbara Jsf73#aol.com wrote: Happy Mothers day all you moms out there. I have been to hanga.com and shogun gallery plus ebay looking for prints to purchase, but without owning reference materials I cannot tell what is a fair deal. ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:47:44 -1000 Subject: [Baren 21479] Re: Japanese print question What to look for and what to buy depends on why you are buying the prints. If you are buying them to look at, study the technique, and enjoy, these same artist's prints are still being printed today from new blocks, and the quality is probably at least as good as the originals (is that so, Dave?). Maybe Dave can even suggest some pointers on how and where to purchase new prints?, as I believe that he knows some of the printers currently making them. However, if you are collecting for investment/historic value, you had better do a lot more studying. You will need to know when various editions were printed (which will require an understanding of the publishing marks in the borders), and how the different editions effect price, and you will need to know what effects the condition of prints, and how the differences in condition effect the value. All in all, that will require a few years study, or you had better rely on a very reputable dealer or gallery. Also, for the artists that you mentioned, you will need some sturdy financial resources. Jack R. ------------------------------ From: Mike Lyon Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 17:17:52 -0500 Subject: [Baren 21480] Re: Japanese print question At 01:21 PM 05/11/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I would like to start collecting some classic Moku hanga by the likes of >Toshi and Hiroshi Yoshida and Kawase Hasui, and I am finding the prices >vary wildly on such prints. I understand that the number of prints out >there for some of these may be quite high or vaired, and that they were >printed in different editions or times, some blocks being printed >posthumously even. However, is there a good guideline to follow for prices? 1) my experience is to generally avoid ebay for Japanese prints -- the prints are generally not accurately described. 2) There is no set "price" for prints. From reputable dealers the prices are generally within about 100% or so from top to bottom. Condition (unfaded colors, pristine paper, good impression, "freshness") counts HUGE. The same print, the same impression, one faded and worm holed and dirty, the other looking like it'd been pulled yesterday (which sometimes it actually was, so be knowledgeable as you can), the first might go for $100 and the second for $25,000. 3) Toshi Yoshida and Hiroshi Yoshida -- like David Bull, these were generally not 'editioned' and there is no telling how many of an image were pulled -- and may still be pulled, even posthumously. Most dealers (not eBay) will tell you "later printing" or "posthumously printed" or the like. Most Yoshida Toshi prints go in the range of $150 to $400 today. The father, Hiroshi, -- his prints are generally priced highter. So called 1st editions in good condition are priced out of sight. Carolyn Staley in Seattle is showing a Yoshida Hiroshi Mt. Ranier from the first edition of 50 on which the price is available by request only (usually this means extremely expensive). http://www.carolynstaleyprints.com/prints/xmisc.336.html A later printing of the same image might be found for around $1000. 4) A great place to start Internet shopping for prints (and to learn more) is Hans Olaf Johansson's wonderful internet site at http://www.bahnhof.se/~secutor/ukiyo-e/guide.html -- there you'll find hundreds of links to on-line galleries, dealers, auction houses, specific artists, and a lot more. - -- Mike Mike Lyon http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol#aol.com Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:43:59 EDT Subject: [Baren 21481] Engish Baren Member Is there an English Baren member who would like to meet one of "us" ? We'll be in Cambridge May 18-26/ Can you recommend any woodblock exhibits there or in the Fitzwilliam? Carol Lyons Irvington, NY ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Sheridan" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:48:00 -0400 Subject: [Baren 21482] Re: Japanese print question John Collecting Japanese prints can be confusing. Don't I know that. The golden rule is "only buy what you like." Research is of course very important. But then you have to find those books. Many Ukiyoe era prints and 20th century prints (Yoshida & Hausi) were reprinted and some are still being reprinted today. While the new ones may not hold the value of the original strikes they are often beautifully printed and a wonder to hold in your hand. The Hiroshi Yoshida jizuri seal was a small seal placed on what were considered the early H. Yoshida prints. Try a search on ebay for "jizuri" and you should be able to see what one looks like. That seal PLUS the print's condition will increase value of those prints. Certainly Mike's and Jack's comments are right on. However I do not agree totally with Mike on what can be found on Ebay. True, some dealers have no idea what they are selling and others have no idea how to evaluate condition. Nevertheless I have found reputable print dealers on Ebay. One, from whom I have purchased several prints from is Thomas Crossland. He was a website: www.ukiyoe-gallery.com which has some very informative pages. From his site I have copied below several topics from his library. These articles I have downloaded and use in my own research. John Mason is another Ebay dealer that I could recommend as one who gives accurate descriptions and values. If you would like to contact me off group I would be happy to answer any other your questions. Joe Sheridan below are two of the topics which are discussed at John Crossland's website. a.. Quick Reference 1: "Watanabe Publisher Seals" great for Hasui dating b.. Quick Reference 2: "Doi Publisher Seals" ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 21483] trip to Kansas I have just booked the trip to Kansas City through Expedia from the baren summit page. I am astounded we can go at such a reasonable price. Wanda, Sharri and myself got a price of $647 each, for the plane fare, the hotel (Marriott) and a car. This seems like a real deal for 7 days to me. We have discussed shipping our tools UPS and will probably do that, we are concerned taking them in our luggage.....I don't want to give them any reason to open the suitcase. We will arrive in KC at about 8pm on the 15th....are you really ready for this, Mike????I am getting excited!Best to all,Barbara ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V23 #2220 *****************************