Baren Digest Saturday, 11 January 2003 Volume 22 : Number 2090 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John and Jan Telfer Date: Fri, 10 Jan 03 21:29:51 +0800 Subject: [Baren 20373] Re: Dave and John's Collabrative Print Dave, >After a day off for drying and re-wetting the paper, printing will be >resuming again this morning, and a couple more steps should be up there >by tonight. Dave, did you have to dry the paper completely or could you have just "rested" or monitored it to let it return to just moist again? I know that the paper can get too saturated to proceed with additional colours, so with your 36 colour printings, how many times will you have to "rest" the paper in between? With my 19 printings at Bootcamp on my Kimberley Colours I made it in one go, but I am a fairly dryish printer and not all the colours covered the paper width. Jan Western Australia ------------------------------ From: John and Jan Telfer Date: Fri, 10 Jan 03 21:29:56 +0800 Subject: [Baren 20374] Re: John's Old Goats Dear John, Thank you for your second Old Goat .... as I mentioned before, I was one of the lucky ones and received the first one unscathed on the other side of the world ... with the second one, four times the size of the first, I was wondering if I needed to install a bigger letterbox for more Old Goats. Great work, John and its lovely getting all these one by one. I am running a little behind my own schedule for my hanga print as it has been far too hot to go into my sauna shed this week .... even the door knob was red hot, but I'll get there, keep your fingers crossed ... especially as I have to post mine a week or so earlier than everyone else!!! Thanks John again for your Old Goats .... it couldn't be you, must be a relative! Jan Western Australia ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII#aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:18:53 EST Subject: [Baren 20375] western vs eastern prints The closes analogy is between oil painting and watercolor painting. A repeatable water color or a repeatable oil painting. Just as some of the skills are very similar but the planning is very different. Like in doing a water color the order of color printing is much more important. The only thing that appears to be the same is the block. Take that back for hand printing the blocks can be cut the same but with press printing no "islands" lol. Back in the recesses of history neither western or eastern printmaking were considered art but were a form of commercial printing. Why western printing used oil based ink was because of lead type not because of the wood blocks. Commercial printing is much tighter than "art printing." Even though wood engraving and hanga developed completely isolated from each other both has almost identical job separations from a management point of view. As a commercial operation all of the different crafts were separate operations all run by the publisher in almost the same relationship in both wood engraving and Japanese wood cuts. Only when they became a fine art did the artist do it all. (not going into the artist pulled prints vs. art publisher debate as it generally does not apply to relief printmaking). john center ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:52:10 +0900 Subject: [Baren 20376] Re: Dave and John's Collaborative Print Jan wrote: > Dave, > >> After a day off for drying and re-wetting the paper, printing will be >> resuming again this morning, and a couple more steps should be up there >> by tonight. > > Dave, did you have to dry the paper completely or could you have just > "rested" or monitored it to let it return to just moist again? This drying wasn't because the paper had become too moist from printing. If that had been the problem, I would have used interleaves of newsprint to suck out the extra moisture. In this case it was to call a halt to the whole printing process to stop mold from developing. The paper had been wet for over a week, and with very vigourous impressions going down (using plenty of paste) I didn't think I would be able to keep going for another full week without getting in trouble (even though it is very cold here now). So I dried them all out completely, just as though it was the end of the printing process, then started again with a good shot of 'formalin' in the moistening water. (Just spraying on some formalin wouldn't have helped, because it wouldn't have penetrated the wet paper. This way it got sucked right deeply down into the dry paper during the remoistening.) I brought them back up to the same level of moisture/softness as I had left off, and the printing continued just as though there hadn't been a break. But any incipient mold down there in the paste/glue/paper must now be killed off, and I'll be able to get to the end without worry ... I think. Four more steps went up today ... and I think there are now seven left. Not exactly sure, because I may have to go back and re-do one or two of the early ones, now that the overall light/dark balance is becoming clearer ... Dave ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII#aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:20:28 EST Subject: [Baren 20377] ?? on mall product sorry for second post got a question on a product in the baren mall. Are the boxwood rounds type high? and what are the sizes in non metric? john center ------------------------------ From: Charles Morgan Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:41:26 -0800 Subject: [Baren 20378] Re: lesser of evils Great tip, April. I had never thought of using such a product, so I began looking for some. I could not find anything with that name here locally. I checked with my friend who owns a local bike shop. They use a degreaser that is supposed to be relatively non-toxic: Finish Line EcoTech Cleaner and Degreaser. Works really great for cleaning inks, etc. On my etching press for registration, I just draw a diagram on a piece of paper and put it under a piece of clear plastic table cloth on the bed. The pencil tends to come off on the plastic, and after a while it is hard to see what is going on. But the EcoTech takes it right of just slick as a whistle. BUT it does not work at all for trasfer of xerox or laser print ... just does not dissolve the fused toner ... too bad. Then I went to a local health food store and found Organic Orange TKO, which is made from orange peels and is supposedly non-toxic. It does a GREAT job of transferring xerox or laser print copy to the block. Use it like you would lacquer thinner ... put the xerox face down on the block ...rub the back with a paper towel or cloth dampened with the TKO ... slick ... and no nasty, toxic fumes ... pleasant smell. Simpler than hot iron or paper plate lithography. "Orange TKO is a citrus cleaner/degreaser made from the peel of the orange. It is an emulsifier which contains no synthetic chemicals, petroleum distillates, or detergents. It is also 100% environmentally friendly, biodegradable, and non-toxic. ... Orange TKO is not a poison. However, if excessive amounts are taken, drink large quantities of water and consult a physician. In case of allergic reactions, use rubber gloves and masks. Avoid eye contact - flush with water." Check their web site ...... www.tkoorange.com There are probably similar products available most everywhere. Cheers ..... Charles At 01:31 PM 12/22/02 -0500, you wrote: >My favorite transfer method is Citra-solv, a cleaning solvent you can find >at health food stores. It is a little thicker (and considerably cheaper) >than oil of wintergreen, with a smell of oranges. Still not healthy to >breathe, it is not nearly as bad as lacquer thinner! > >best, > >April ------------------------------ From: "Maria Diener (aka Arango)" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:11:28 -0800 Subject: [Baren 20379] RE: ?? on mall product John, The boxwood rounds are various widths, some are as thick as 1 1/4" (317 mm). Really beautiful wood. My latest "rings" series was done on the rounds as they came from Japan. http://www.1000woodcuts.com/WoodEngravings/engrave2.html As you can see from some of the prints, some split in Las Vegas, despite my careful acclimating procedure. I just used them as they were anyway. As far as diameter, the large ones are about 6" (15.24 cm). I got a couple of the very irregular kind and they inspired some crazy figures, they sit and wait for me to engrave. Since Matsumura-san cuts them to order, you might get him to cut you the right height if you request it. Maria PS The conversion is 2.54 cm to the inch. For clarification, a cm is 10 mm, or 100th of a meter, which is about a yard and so much, or about an 80th of a furlong, which is around 120th of a nautical mile, but only in the Atlantic ;-) <||><||><||><||><||><||> Maria Arango Las Vegas Nevada USA www.1000woodcuts.com <||><||><||><||><||><||> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > [mailto:owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp]On Behalf Of FurryPressII#aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:20 AM > To: baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Subject: [Baren 20377] ?? on mall product > > > sorry for second post got a question on a product in the baren mall. > Are the boxwood rounds type high? > and what are the sizes in non metric? > > john center > > ------------------------------ From: Aqua4tis#aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:19:20 EST Subject: [Baren 20380] Re: New print progression ... updated ... davebull#woodblock.com writes: > http://woodblock.com/surimono/process/5 > dave you are a wonderful teacher!!! i am amazed at this print just when i though you couldnt do more to it to make it wonderful you did!!! i have sooooo much to learn georga ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:39:08 -1000 Subject: [Baren 20381] Re: western vs eastern prints FurryPressII#aol.com wrote: Why western printing > used oil based ink was because of lead type not because of the wood blocks. Is this so? What kind of ink did Durer use? That is pre-lead type. My guess is that western printers developed oil based ink technology from oil based paints, which the East did not have. Painting technology in the East was all water based, and the same materials were just used in printing. Jack Reisland ------------------------------ From: slinders#attbi.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:08:42 -0600 Subject: [Baren 20382] Postcard Art Competition The Curt Teich Postcard Archives, covering 1893-1978, is the largest public collection of postcards and related materials in North America, with more than one million images illustrating more than 10,000 towns and cities. The museum is fascinating to visit! They sponsor a Postcard Art Competition which you may wish to join. entry information Sharen ------------------------------ From: FurryPressII#aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:37:05 EST Subject: [Baren 20383] Re: western vs eastern prints Durer was not pre Guttenberg in fact 50+ years later and Durer printed with lead type. Most of Durers woodcuts were printed in both book form and as single prints. Many of the prints there were printed in book format have text printed on the back. The prints from the four horseman of the apockalipse were issued as a book. Durer was the first artist who was the publisher and printer. john center ------------------------------ From: "Maria Diener (aka Arango)" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:36:03 -0800 Subject: [Baren 20384] Re: western vs eastern prints In one of Heller's Papermaking books it is mentioned that oil based inks were developed to accommodate Western papers available at the time. Elaborating a little, two of the immediate demands for the propagation possibilities of the woodcut were "votivas" (prayer cards) and playing cards for gambling. Both of these items needed to be handled repeatedly and withstand some abuse as they were designed for portability in players and prayers pockets. Western papers were ideally suited for this, being beefier than the traditional Japanese papers. As woodblock printing adjusted to its new environment, it was soon found that the waterbase pigment Japanese method was not suitable either for heavy handling nor for the Western paper. Thus oil-based inks were born! Just relating what I read, pretty interesting stuff in Heller's books. Maria <||><||><||><||><||><||> Maria Arango Las Vegas Nevada USA www.1000woodcuts.com <||><||><||><||><||><||> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > [mailto:owner-baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp]On Behalf Of Jack Reisland > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:39 PM > To: baren#ml.asahi-net.or.jp > Subject: [Baren 20381] Re: western vs eastern prints > > > > > FurryPressII#aol.com wrote: Why western printing > > > used oil based ink was because of lead type not because of the > wood blocks. > > Is this so? What kind of ink did Durer use? That is pre-lead > type. My guess is > that western printers developed oil based ink technology from oil > based paints, > which the East did not have. Painting technology in the East was all water > based, and the same materials were just used in printing. > > Jack Reisland > > > ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol#aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:54:08 EST Subject: [Baren 20385] Re: New print progression ... updated ... Dave and John, your print is amazing. Thank you for going the the trouble of putting it on the Web so we can see and learn. I looked at the first 5 or 6, then got curious and went to the last block and worked backwards, meeting in the middle. Terrific! Carol Lyons ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:19:21 -1000 Subject: [Baren 20386] Re: western vs eastern prints FurryPressII#aol.com wrote: > Durer was not pre Guttenberg in fact 50+ years later and Durer printed > with lead type. Most of Durers woodcuts were printed in both book form and > as single prints. Shoot, I guess I got that one wrong. But woodblock printing in Europe does predate lead type. Printing blocks have survived from the late 1300's, although these were probably for printing on cloth, but during the early 1400's, when papermaking began to flourish, block printing technology was adapted to print on paper, to print, as Maria noted, religious images and playing cards. Also during this time, books were printed, with both the text and illustrations carved on the same block, in imitation of hand painted manuscripts. It was just a few decades later that moveable type was developed. Jack R. ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez#walgreens.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:56:34 -0600 Subject: [Baren 20387] Re: Dave and John's Collaborative Print The new pages are very informative, thanks..... It seems that today quite by accident I came across another tidbit of information from Dave in a most unexpected place. I had been trying to figure out how to do a good 'bleed' print using the traditional hanga & kento registration techniques... but could not quite figure out how to.....well, I was surfing about and found the answer which was so simple I simply had to laugh.... Julio {;-) This tidbit from www.shotei.com : Current day woodblock printmaker, David Bull says, "In this print, the publisher has been very stingy and has tried to get as many printable sheets as possible from the large sheets from the papermaker. The ideal way to make a 'bleed' print like this is to start with a larger piece, print it with the background colour extending a little beyond where the final print size will be, and then trim the thing to size later. This is the way I do all my bleed type prints. When it is done that way, any kento stains, etc. are trimmed off ... ------------------------------ From: "daved" Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:13:34 -0800 Subject: [Baren 20388] Re: lesser of evils On an amusing note today I was trying to relearn printing and I'm using polyester litho plates, well my plate was over inking and I "decided" my ink was to oily. I gathered all the ink up and then went to clean my plate using orange citrus cleaner. Needless to say I was quite surprised when my image wiped right off my plate. I had mistakenly thought toner was insoluble in citrus cleaner Daved ------------------------------ From: Myron Turner Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:26:48 -0600 Subject: [Baren 20389] Re: western vs eastern prints You may be right about the prevalence of oil technology in the Renaissance, but Durer's career actually coincided with the first great age of printing, and his prints were used in printed books. Myron At 10:39 AM 10/01/2003 -1000, you wrote: >FurryPressII#aol.com wrote: Why western printing > > > used oil based ink was because of lead type not because of the wood blocks. > >Is this so? What kind of ink did Durer use? That is pre-lead type. My guess is >that western printers developed oil based ink technology from oil based >paints, >which the East did not have. Painting technology in the East was all water >based, and the same materials were just used in printing. > >Jack Reisland ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V22 #2090 *****************************