Baren Digest               Sunday, 17 March 2002       Volume 18 : Number 1765


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From: G Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:25:23 -0500
Subject: [Baren 17532] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 

I'm feeling a little confused about the grain in paper.  The books I 
have read and studied for bookbinding have always said handmade papers 
don't have a grain and can be folded in any direction.  When making book 
covers of handmade papers  I can fold it either direction and there is 
no resistance as in papers that are machine made. But, maybe with 
printmaking moku hanga style, something different is going on with the 
paper because of wetting it?  

Gayle


>>But the 'grain' that I am talking about isn't anything visible - it's an 
>>artifact of the way the paper-maker moves his/her arms during the 
>>forming process. They dip the screen into the vat full of prepared 
>>fibres, and then pull it up and begin a complex 'rocking' process. 
>>Although there are some side-to-side rocking motions, most of the main 
>>action takes place front-to-back, and it is this action that lays down 
>>the tiny fibres in a way that leaves them in some kind of 'order', 
>>giving the paper more strength in one direction, compared to the other. 
>>The grain is always in the direction running away from the papermaker as 
>>he stands at the vat. As the sheets are almost always wider than they 
>>are tall, the grain thus usually runs along the shorter edge of the 
>>sheet.
>>

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:50:54 +0900
Subject: [Baren 17533] Re: 'Grain' in paper 

Gayle wrote:

> I'm feeling a little confused about the grain in paper.  The books I 
> have read and studied for bookbinding have always said handmade papers 
> don't have a grain and can be folded in any direction.


Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word 'grain' ...  I'm not trying to go 
against what the 'books' say. I myself don't well understand what is 
happening, because when I look at the paper through high magnification, 
the fibres seem to be in pretty much totally random order, with no 
'lining up' apparent at all.

But the paper _does_ behave very differently in the two directions. 
Remember over in Sidney the year before last; we took two thin strips of 
'hosho' - one cut each way from a sheet - and then tried to break them? 
The one cut 'against' the grain snapped easily in one's hands; the one 
cut 'with' the grain couldn't be pulled in two, even with two 'big men' 
playing 'tug-o-war' trying to tear it apart ...

The other important difference is in the amount that it expands when 
moistened, with cheaper papers expanding in the crossways direction far 
more than they expand in the lengthways direction.

So when making prints with fairly tight registration, is really is 
important to be aware of the difference, and to plan around it. If you 
happened to cut a batch of paper and mixed sheets together that had been 
cut both across and with the grain, you could end up with a lot of 
registration headaches ...

Dave


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From: John and Jan Telfer <jtelfer@iinet.net.au>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 02 22:27:22 -0000
Subject: [Baren 17534] Re: Oil and Watercolour on blocks 

John,


>question can you use a block printed in the western oil based method to 
>print 
>in the japanese method?  What effect would the oil based ink have on the 
>water basted ink? 

You can use your same blocks with either method, but I would suggest you 
print first with the watercolour and then when you are sure you are 
finished with your edition, then print in oil, but not the other way 
around, because of the grease in the oil pigment.  It will repulse the 
water molecules.  I will depend on how well you clean your blocks or 
course.  You could either wash them with dishwashing liquid and water or 
lightly resand them after using oilbased ink and retry your watercolours.


>And how would the image change with the two totally different methods of 
>inking the block?  Would love to see how different the two prints would be.

Try it for yourself.
The hanga gives a soft translucent watercolour effect, the oil, rich and 
bold.  Have a look at a set of Exchange prints and you will guage the 
difference between the two methods.  Both have their peculiarities and 
their special qualities.

Experiment a little for yourself.

Jan

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:34:03 EST
Subject: [Baren 17535] Ball bearing barens 



Pete, McClain's sells GREAT ball bearing barens, I have two of them, one for 
printing large flat areas and one for printing detail.  As I've said before, 
they're pricey, but worth every penny.  I believe the Baren mall has some 
ball bearing barens, but I've never used them.
best wishes
Sarah


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From: Wanda <robertson@canby.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:30:24 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17536] Re: Paper grain ... 

Thanks Dave, for a very interesting post about paper grain. I found this out
(argh) on my 11.5 Flora print. An oban-sized print on Masa or Torinoko paper will
expand an unbelievable (frightening) length! Would you please go into more detail
about which way the grain of the paper should lay on the woodblock? And would
this be different if you are carving shina or birch plywood instead of solid wood?

The (excellent) paper from the Yamaguchi family will hardly expand at all in
either direction - so that is my paper of choice, but sometimes the cost has to
enter into the mix.

I think there is some confusion about Hosho paper in recent posts. The Hosho
paper available in the United States is a quite soft, absorbent, sort of spongey
white paper that is a little difficult to print (for a beginner). Perhaps the
Canadian version is something else - or the term "Hosho" is being mis-used? At
any rate, I find Hosho (both student & professional grade) quite difficult to
print with. You have to have the moisture in your paper, block & pigment exactly
right, as there is not much sizing in either the student or professional grade. I
recall it reverting to it's pulp state on several blocks of shina at one workshop!

Wanda


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From: "marilynn smih" <marilynnsmih@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:16:03 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17538] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1760 

Bette, welcome to another newbie.  Regarding furthering your education with 
a family:  my children were late grade school, early junior high age when I 
went bac.  I part timed it for wome years and than did a full time senior 
year.  I was done when they were in highschool  and my husband was right the 
kids needed me more as high school kids than they did earlier.  Good luck 
and have fun with that art.
Marilynn



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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:14:43 +0900
Subject: [Baren 17540] Re: Paper grain ... 

Wanda wrote:

> Would you please go into more detail
> about which way the grain of the paper should lay on the woodblock? And 
> would
> this be different if you are carving shina or birch plywood instead of 
> solid wood?


Well if I can skip the word 'should' ... then sure!   [:-)] 

In the traditional work here, it is considered very important to let the 
paper and wood work 'together', and not 'against each other'. 
Expansion/contraction in the paper works exactly the same way as 
expansion/contraction in wood - in both cases it is much more pronounced 
_across_ the sheet than _along_ it.

So when planning the layout, the cutting of the paper and the cutting of 
the wood should match; in both cases the long dimension will lie along 
the 'grain', so any expansion of either component will be across the 
shorter dimension of the print.

In the case of using plywood, expansion of the wood is obviously much 
reduced, so I guess this might not be such an important factor. Or if 
you are making quite small prints, where the expansion is minimal, you 
may also 'get away with it' if not following this procedure.

But if you are making large (say, o-ban or up) prints, it would make 
your life much easier if you ensured that the paper and wood matched ...


> I think there is some confusion about Hosho paper in recent posts. The 
> Hosho
> paper available in the United States is a quite soft, absorbent, sort 
> of spongey
> white paper that is a little difficult to print (for a beginner). 
> Perhaps the
> Canadian version is something else - or the term "Hosho" is being 
> mis-used?


'Hosho' is actually a generic term for a _class_ of paper. I guess back 
in the 'old days' the word was used in a more narrow sense, for a 
specific type of very high-quality paper (usually made entirely from 
mulberry fibre, quite thick and fluffy, and extremely strong). Nowadays 
the term appears all over the place; modern paper companies obviously 
like to use the word because of its mental association with 'quality'. 
So the word itself has become pretty much meaningless. Heck, you see 
paper in catalogues called 'parchment', but I bet a scribe from the 
middle ages sure wouldn't recognize it!

Dave


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From: barebonesart <barebonesart@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:31:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17541] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1764 

Dan, 
Using water based block inks intended for Western style printing is a
completely different animal than using the rice paste/watercolor method of
moku hanga. It will be interesting to see if you can get it to work. Since
Lino is a petroleum based product and, therefore, oily by nature, it doesn't
seem on the surface (pun alert!) that it will work, but who knows? maybe you
can get it to. Let us know how you fare - you could open a whole new world
of printmaking. The Dew Prints - do you like it? (groan)
Sharri

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End of Baren Digest V18 #1765
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