Baren Digest               Sunday, 10 March 2002       Volume 18 : Number 1755


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John and Jan Telfer <jtelfer@iinet.net.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 02 22:31:50 -0000
Subject: [Baren 17406] Re: Baren Anniversary 


>WHAT:
>A week-long Hanga Intensive face to face exchange of expertise.
>WHERE:
>Kansas City, Missouri, USA.
>WHEN:
>Seven days from June 15th and June 26th, 2003 (to be settled after polling).


Maria,

I can't give you a definite "Yes" from me....three years in a row from 
Australia may be more than my husband will allow!!!  But, I will pencil 
it into my diary and keep my fingers crossed and take another lottery 
ticket!

Baren encompasses both hanga and oily people, people...as equals.

If you want to know what it is like travelling with carving tools, just 
ask me!!!!  Put them in your "booked" on luggage and there is no problem. 
 Coming back into Australia last time I declared my carving tools and the 
customs officers wanted to have a look at them, but I had to quickly tell 
them not to touch them as they are extremely sharp....I don't know what 
she thought I used....blunt tools!!!  Coming back into Australia it is 
the wood that is the problem for us but so far so good.  It will be 
interesting this time going over three borders......

This June I will be stopping in LA on the way home late June, but will 
give you dates in about a weeks time.  I hope I will be able to catch 
with some Baren Members then for coffee.

Cheers,

Jan
Western Australia

------------------------------

From: "Gillyin Gatto" <gillying@Maineline.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 09:47:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17407] teflon baren 

re   query on teflon barens   i have used them   for about 30 years  or 
longer
they are inexpensive and work quite well
  my first one lasted in good condition for  over twenty years-ten of those
years of high volumn printing for show circuit  and prints up to 3 x 5 feet
- - i now let my elementary  after- school kids use it  and its still going
strong, even though it is black and worn in spots

i would like to try a ball bearing baren but  $$ are a  factor
good upper body strength and teflon are alot more affordable for me
Gillyin--  machias maine usa

------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan@uvic.ca>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 08:03:32 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17408] music 

I trust the music exchange is going well. I only recently realized that 
Hanga was a very popular art form in the southern US in the early 1900's, 
and was widely celebrated in song. I am sure you are all familiar with
verses like the following:

Hanga down your head, Tom Dooley ....

or

Hanga me, oh hanga me, and I'll be dead and gone ...

or

... hanga from the gallows tree ...

I wonder how those southerners first came into contact with Japanese art ?????

Anyway, wish I could join the exchange, but I will wait until I have had 
more experience.

Cheers ........ Charles 

------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan@uvic.ca>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 08:16:26 -0800
Subject: [none]

A couple of days ago I sent a number of questions to the list, but they 
never seem to have shown up. Maybe as Graham suggests, I have been a bad 
boy. Somehow I got dropped off the list. Soooo, I will try one more time.

Well, the gathering for 2003 sounds line FUN, and educational too. I am 
thinking very seriously about it.

Questions:

(1) If I drive my truck camper down, is there a place near the studio where 
I can park all week and sleep in my camper? Maybe a one week parking pass 
to the University, or arrangements with a nearby mall, or ....???

(2) For those camping in the studio, what arrangements are there for 
bathrooms, showers, meals, etc.???

(3) Since you people who know everything are just champing at the bit to 
show off for us novices, are you going to pay us to be in your audience ????

O.K., O.K., so the last question was just a joke.

Since I sent my questions, it has been stated that there will be 2 floors, 
one for guys and  and for dolls with separate bath rooms. But a week 
without bath facilities would be grim for all. Are there showers available 
as well as toilets???

I would also hope the "suggested supplies" list could be kept to a minimum 
for those of us who may have to fly down. Lugging a bunch of planks, 
pigments, and (god forbid !!!) carving tools through customs, luggage 
inspections, and airports would be a definite deterrent to attendance. And 
shipping anything across the border via UPS is VERY expensive because they 
charge a broker's fee.

On another matter, someone mentioned sometime back where one can still 
obtain a copy of "Non-Toxic Intaglio Printmaking". I would REALLY 
appreciate it if you could post the source again, as I have been unable to 
locate it. Thanks ......

Charles 

------------------------------

From: "Jean Eger Womack" <jeaneger@jeaneger.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 08:48:22 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17410] Re:   Baren Digest V18 #1754 


>
> From: Aqua4tis@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 18:46:59 EST
> Subject: [Baren 17394] teaching question
>
> hello everyone
> i have a question for the teachers out there    and i hope this will be
> sort of on topic for this list       if not i appologize and please send info
> offlist

> im going to be teaching an intersession class at the local continuation
> school for two weeks starting the end of march      the classes will be 4
> hours long each day   i had thought i would choose the theme of music for the
> kids to interpret visually

> i thought the first week id have them do this in watercolor and the second
> week in linocuts

> my questions are:    is this feasible in this time frame?  and also how do
> you grade these things fairly?   i thought id consider composition and
> originality, use of color and space   use of materials....   any other
> suggestions?

> thank you for any input you can give me
> georga


------------------------------

From: "Jean Eger Womack" <jeaneger@jeaneger.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:06:33 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17411] Re:   Baren Digest V18 #1754  

Georga,
The art teachers at the ArtsEdNet discussion group like rubrics.  That is a
written list of expectations ranging from excellent to poor for the various
topics you listed.

My master teacher essentially graded on attendance--she gave a daily grade
for work done.  They had to be actually working 45 minutes of of each hour.
She also graded on whether the project actually was finished or not,
although she pointed to one carefully constructed, unpainted,  insect and
said that it was done so carefully that she didn't have the heart to give a
bad grade.

I graded partly on the work that was completed and turned in--in stages.
For example, construction of the rain stick was 50 points, paper mache the
rainstick, another 20 points, painting the rainstick another 15 points,
Adding projections to the rainstick another 15 points.  A lot of the grade
was based on notes on definitions that I posted every day.  They were able
to do that with a lot of nagging and encouraging from me.  The school called
them "do-nows" which are normally known as "warm-ups."  They were supposed
to turn in between a paragraph and a page of notes on design vocabulary--art
elements and art principles, every day.  My theory was that if they wrote
them down, the information would be planted in their brains via their hands.
I tried to explain the words and show examples, of stipple shading, for
example.  If I was a really great teacher, with years of experience, I would
be able to weave the definitions into the actual art practice.  As it was,
we just marched through the vocabulary and also created art.  It's also a
lot of work for the teacher to grade those papers and enter them into the
books.  I used a little computer program and gave them a list of assignments
they needed to complete.  I gave them almost unlimited time to make up the
work.  Gosh  it was a lot of work.

Then, if I saw the grades were so low that most of the class was failing, I
realized that my expectations were too high, so I just raised the whole
class's grades one whole grade.  It is not fair to young people to make the
requirements so difficult that they are discouraged from ever trying to make
art again.  Think about it.  You want them to continue making art for the
rest of their lives, right?-- not use it as a stick to beat them over the
head.  The goal is to give them some successful experiences in art so that
they can go on enjoying art for the rest of their lives.

Jean Womack



> From: Aqua4tis@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 18:46:59 EST
> Subject: [Baren 17394] teaching question
>
> hello everyone
> i have a question for the teachers out there    and i hope this will be
> sort of on topic for this list       if not i appologize and please send info
> offlist

> im going to be teaching an intersession class at the local continuation
> school for two weeks starting the end of march      the classes will be 4
> hours long each day   i had thought i would choose the theme of music for the
> kids to interpret visually

> i thought the first week id have them do this in watercolor and the second
> week in linocuts

> my questions are:    is this feasible in this time frame?  and also how do
> you grade these things fairly?   i thought id consider composition and
> originality, use of color and space   use of materials....   any other suggestions?
> thank you for any input you can give me
> georga





------------------------------

From: Catherine Pfeifer <cate108@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 11:14:31 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17412] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1754 


> Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com> wrote:
>
> Graham, you intend to take advantage of our Kansas City style hospitality
> next year?  In the meantime make an effort not to think about my short and
> curlies, please, and try, try, try to stay on-topic.


Mike, are all of us prohibited from thinking about your short and curlies or
just Graham?

Having the Hanga Hootenanny in Kansas City is an inspired choice.  This
terrific city is one of the best kept secrets in the US.  Having some of the
famous barbeque and hanging at the train station clock tower where Bess
always met Harry (Truman) are other options (at least for us romantic
carnivores).  Also, read up on your civil war history before you visit
Lawrence, KS (we are visiting the Spencer, right?).  For those who have
never seen one, Lawrence has one of the last intact Main Streets (called
Massachusetts Street) in the US.

In honor of the upcoming KC Hanga event, may I suggest that Tornados (or
inclement weather in general) be a theme for an exchange at that time?

Mike's karate and studio spaces are amazing.  Just looking at them is an art
education.  I will volunteer my car if anyone wants to do a car print in
Mike's parking lot.  Thanks again for my first hanga lessons, Mike.

Since it is actually no longer the year of the snake, I am now officially
late with that exchange.  Don't worry, Graham will guide my hand to finish
them at boot camp in June.  And the horses too.

Life is good in Peoria, IL.  I expect to have my first studio space (since I
will have my first house) by this summer.  Any suggestions about what I
should look for to make the space safe and effective?

High Regards,

Catherine Pfeifer




------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:28:13 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17413] Re: music 



>I trust the music exchange is going well. I only recently realized 
>that Hanga was a very popular art form in the southern US in the 
>early 1900's, and was widely celebrated in song. I am sure you are 
>all familiar with those old songs, with verses like the following:
>
>Hanga down your head, Tom Dooley ....
>or
>Hanga me, oh hanga me, and I'll be dead and gone ...
>or
>... hanga from the gallows tree ...
>
>I wonder how those southerners first came into contact with Japanese art ?????
>

Wonderful Charles.....
Hey Marnie,  we have a stand in for the standup comedy of Richard 
Stockham.... wonderful.

Charles also wrote.....

>(3) Since you people who know everything are just champing at the 
>bit to show off for us novices, are you going to pay us to be in 
>your audience ????


He folks ... not to worry.... I get him at Boot Camp first and 
between Jan and myself we will certainly get the matter under 
control. But first I take back my offer to instruct.

What fee structure will we hold out for guys.

I want to know if jeering and cat calls will be in order.

I know this is off topic .... but who the  - H E double hockey sticks - cares

Graham

PS I can see that Charles is going to uphold the Canadian tradition.
Maybe I can retire and hang up my short and curlies.

------------------------------

From: b.patera@att.net
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 18:47:29 +0000
Subject: [Baren 17414] Exchange 13.... Music..... Update 

Hi All,

Just an update to let you know what's going on with 
exchange 13.

Philip Smith has had to withdraw from the exchange due 
to illness. While I was very sorry to hear about 
Philip's problem I want to thank him for letting me know 
so promptly. Roger Lee has taken his place and will have 
ample time to do his print.

Barbara Mason sent out a plea to all who want exchange 
cases. She has advised us that orders should be placed 
soon as they are to be sent by slow and much cheaper 
mail. They are available thru the Baren Mall.

That's all for now. Hope everyone is busy designing and 
cutting.

Regards,

Barbara P. 

------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 12:56:26 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17415] Charles Morgan questions about June 2003 get-together 

Dear Charles,

The studio where the June, 2003 moku-hanga intensive will happen (see: 
http://www.barenforum.org/survey/survey.html ) is in an area of Kansas City 
on the Southern edge of downtown known as "The Crossroads Arts 
District".  It is a very urban setting and there are several dozen retail 
galleries within six blocks or so.  The building has a 20 space parking 
lot, but I don't think you should camp there...  Camp inside instead.  If 
you really need a campground, there are none super-close, but many not 
terribly far (within 30 minutes'  or so drive).

1) We will have to arrange our own meals.  No cooking allowed in the 
building, but there is a small microwave and a tiny refrigerator and a soda 
machine.

2) There are two bathrooms with showers on the first floor.  One of those 
has three 'communal' shower heads, the other has only one.  There is a 
bathroom with 'toilet and sink only' on each of the 2nd and third floors 
where we will be 'camping' and spending most of our time.

3) None of us knows everything, you will not be paid, but you will be 
enriched.  No joke!

Although Keith Howard's "Non-Toxic Intaglio Printmaking", 1998, is out of 
print,  you might be able to find some of his information here: 
http://www.mtsu.edu/~art/printmaking/non_toxic.html

Mike

At 08:16 AM 3/9/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>A couple of days ago I sent a number of questions to the list, but they 
>never seem to have shown up. Maybe as Graham suggests, I have been a bad 
>boy. Somehow I got dropped off the list. Soooo, I will try one more time.
>
>Well, the gathering for 2003 sounds line FUN, and educational too. I am 
>thinking very seriously about it.
>
>Questions:
>
>(1) If I drive my truck camper down, is there a place near the studio 
>where I can park all week and sleep in my camper? Maybe a one week parking 
>pass to the University, or arrangements with a nearby mall, or ....???
>
>(2) For those camping in the studio, what arrangements are there for 
>bathrooms, showers, meals, etc.???
>
>(3) Since you people who know everything are just champing at the bit to 
>show off for us novices, are you going to pay us to be in your audience ????
>
>O.K., O.K., so the last question was just a joke.
>
>Since I sent my questions, it has been stated that there will be 2 floors, 
>one for guys and  and for dolls with separate bath rooms. But a week 
>without bath facilities would be grim for all. Are there showers available 
>as well as toilets???
>
>I would also hope the "suggested supplies" list could be kept to a minimum 
>for those of us who may have to fly down. Lugging a bunch of planks, 
>pigments, and (god forbid !!!) carving tools through customs, luggage 
>inspections, and airports would be a definite deterrent to attendance. And 
>shipping anything across the border via UPS is VERY expensive because they 
>charge a broker's fee.
>
>On another matter, someone mentioned sometime back where one can still 
>obtain a copy of "Non-Toxic Intaglio Printmaking". I would REALLY 
>appreciate it if you could post the source again, as I have been unable to 
>locate it. Thanks ......
>
>Charles


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

------------------------------

From: LEAFRUTH@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:36:06 EST
Subject: [Baren 17416] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1754 

In a message dated 3/9/02 5:01:41 AM, owner-baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp writes:

<< http://www.jesuitportland.com/visualart.shtml=20

Unfortunately I couldn't access this website although I would very much like 
too.

Sarah as soon as I find out the date of the Paine Webber gallery show in 
April I will port it.  I'd Love you to see it and I imagine a lot of my 
students will be there.  Ruth



www.ruthleaf.com

------------------------------

From: FurryPressII@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:22:29 EST
Subject: [Baren 17417] Re: music 

off topic   what the ......  are short and curlies?????

------------------------------

From: Charles Morgan <cmorgan@uvic.ca>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:46:58 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17418] image help 

I have an idea for a print I would like to do, but it is very loosely based 
on a statue. I need help tracking down the sculptor, date, etc.

When I graduated from high school (just at the end of the last ice age), 
someone gave me a plaster reproduction of a statue. The image was a chimp, 
sitting on a stack of books. He was holding a human skull in one hand, 
gazing at it, and scratching his head in a puzzled way with the other hand. 
On the spine of one of the books was the name Darwin. My little statue has 
long since disappeared with lots of other flotsam and jetsam from my 
misspent youth. The image I have in mind is quite different, but related, 
and I feel I should give some credit for my inspiration.

The problem is that I cannot find any reference to that statue anywhere. I 
recall reading somewhere (I can't remember where ... some of the jettisoned 
flotsam and jetsam consisted of a significant portion of my brain cells) 
that this statue was a favorite of Lenin's. So that will give a rough upper 
bound on the date. Any information anyone can supply would be VERY welcome.

Cheers ....... Charles

------------------------------

From: "Jean Eger Womack" <jeaneger@jeaneger.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:58:21 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17419] Re:   Baren Digest V18 #1754  

Mike, how are you going to put up 37 printmakers in your building?  Will it
hold that many?  I can hardly wait to meet Graham and Marnie and Dave Bull
and Maria and Jeanne Chase.....and.....and....  IF I don't get a job
teaching art in summer school.

I am not sure about the face-off competition aspects of the event.  I will
probably just fold.  That's usually what happens when I try to print in one
of those situations.  I can't compete.

I could bring my big print and print it moku-hanga style, with the pigments
and home made rice paste.  But I probably couldn't get my big print on the
plane.  I'd have to ship it out in advance.

I know I can't compete with the big guys.  Somebody has to come in second
best.

What is there to do in Kansas City, Missouri?  I think there are Womacks
buried out in Missouri somewhere.  My husband likes to look at gravestones,
of all things.  Cemeteries never held much fascination for me--until I
visited New Orleans.

Is Stephen Goddard going to be in town for this?  Is there some place to
camp out?  I need to check with Stephen about some historical stuff.

If you are in California, the Fetterly Gallery in Vallejo has a beautiful
print show on right now.  We are looking forward to the annual meeting of
the California Society of Printmakers which will be held April 6 at my alma
mater, San Francisco State University.  Peter Selz, Professor Emeritus of
Art History, University of California, Berkeley, will be the speaker.  His
talk will be open to the public, no charge, so if you are in the area, come
on over and say hello.
Jean
e-mail: jeaneger@jeaneger.com
http://www.jeaneger.com




------------------------------

From: Graham <gscholes@woodblock.info>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:49:20 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17420] Re: music 


>off topic   what the ......  are short and curlies?????


Toes

Graham

------------------------------

From: "Maurice Fykes III" <mfykes@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:03:40 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17421] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1754 

Ruth,
Try this link...http://www.jesuitportland.com/visualart.shtml
Make sure there isn't a "=20" at the end of the link statement. Let me know
if you can't get in.

Maurice
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <LEAFRUTH@aol.com>
To: <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 12:36 PM
Subject: [Baren 17416] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1754



>
> In a message dated 3/9/02 5:01:41 AM, owner-baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp

writes:

>
> << http://www.jesuitportland.com/visualart.shtml=20
> Unfortunately I couldn't access this website although I would very much like to.
> Sarah as soon as I find out the date of the Paine Webber gallery show in
> April I will port it.  I'd Love you to see it and I imagine a lot of my
> students will be there.  Ruth
>
>
>
> www.ruthleaf.com
>


------------------------------

From: "Maria Arango" <maria@mariarango.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:53:51 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17422] KC travel suggestions  

Until we get closer to figuring out how many people are *actually* for sure
definitely really going to this thing, here are some travel plan suggestions
to help out. This is so that we don't have to hand-hold everyone to find
accommodations, restaurants, nearby attractions, and things like that--and
PLEASE don't anyone take that wrong, we are all adults here.
I happen to travel quite a bit and this is what I do to know a little bit
about a city before I get there.

- - Go to www.yahoo.com just a suggestion, that's what I use. Find Driving
Directions and click on that.
- - Enter your address as departure; Lyon Studio address (2026 Broadway, KC MO
64108) as destination.
- - Like magic you get a route, step by step directions, and a printable map
of the route and destination. You can zoom in and out of the maps to get a
world view or a street level view.
- - Now the fun begins! Once you click on DESTINATION you will see all kinds
of links to motels, restaurants, nearby attractions, and so on. Many of the
hotels/motels have links so you can make reservations right then; some of
the attractions also have links. It's fun!
Incidentally, there seem to be around 30 motels/hotels within 2 miles of
Mike's place, something for everyone.

Just a suggestion to save everyone time and help us all plan. I'm 1376 miles
away by Interstate (yuck) and 1500 or so the way I really go; 3 days of
outstanding scenery should put me there!

Mike the place sounds wonderful! Should boys and girls draw straws for the
1-stall shower?

Maria

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Maria Arango
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
http://www.1000woodcuts.com
maria@mariarango.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


------------------------------

From: "Lee and Barbara Mason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 19:10:18 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17423] kids woodblocks 

Ruth, try this one.
Barbara

http://www.jesuitportland.com/visualart.shtml

> Unfortunately I couldn't access this website although I would very much like to.
> Sarah as soon as I find out the date of the Paine Webber gallery show in
> April I will port it.  I'd Love you to see it and I imagine a lot of my
> students will be there.  Ruth
> www.ruthleaf.com
>



------------------------------

From: barebonesart <barebonesart@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 20:02:09 -0800
Subject: [Baren 17424] Re: Baren Digest V18 #1754 

georga,

Knowing the age of the students helps, but your project sounds very do-able
and the time allowed should be more than sufficient. You might consider
having them do the watercolor first and then start right away on the relief
print. That will take at least 4 hours if you're working with high school
age. Whatever age you work with, please tie in some art history, and include
critique. Consider all the elements and principles of design and always find
two good things to say about every piece and couch your criticisms as
suggestions, " You might try ---- or I wonder what would happen if you tried
- ----" .  Try to get some dialog going between the students, so they learn to
"see" art. The critique can take the better part of an hour if you have an
average class of 25. You might consider having each student do an edition
equal to the number of people in the class, including you, and exchange
prints and have them either put them in a book or make a portfolio case for
them - a simple one, but it can be done nicely with oak tag and simple
ribbon.  Hope you can use some of these ideas! Need more? just holler -
Sharri

------------------------------

From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:06:13 -0600
Subject: [Baren 17425] Re:   Baren Digest V18 #1754 

Dear Jean,

Haven't opened the June, 2003 moku-hanga 'convention' for registration yet, 
so haven't got a great idea how many will actually register.  If you 
haven't already, please visit http://www.barenforum.org/survey/survey.html and complete 
the survey so we can make this the event you want it to 
be!  We will surely have to limit the number of participants -- probably 
we'll do a sign-up similar to a print exchange -- first come, first 
served.  It appears that about 1/2 will want to 'camp' in the studio and 
the other 1/2 will make other arrangements.  I imagine it will be great 
fun, especially for those who camp in.

I'm not sure about the 'face-off competition aspects' either...  I think it 
takes at least two to compete, and if I'm not one of them...  Well, you 
know what I mean, I hope.  This get-together is not intended to be any sort 
of competition -- cooperative will be a much better adjective, I expect.

It'll be such a pleasure to get to meet and work with everyone, I 
think.  Really, really looking forward to this.

Mike

  At 03:58 PM 3/9/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>Mike, how are you going to put up 37 printmakers in your building?  Will it
>hold that many?  I can hardly wait to meet Graham and Marnie and Dave Bull
>and Maria and Jeanne Chase.....and.....and....  IF I don't get a job
>teaching art in summer school.
>
>I am not sure about the face-off competition aspects of the event.  I will
>probably just fold.  That's usually what happens when I try to print in one
>of those situations.  I can't compete.
><...>
>Jean
>e-mail: jeaneger@jeaneger.com
>http://www.jeaneger.com
>
>


Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com ------------------------------

End of Baren Digest V18 #1755
*****************************