Baren Digest              Sunday, 16 December 2001      Volume 17 : Number 1656


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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:29:52 EST
Subject: [Baren 16498] horsey stuff, etc 

Georga, please write me off line if and let me know whether or not you got a 
horse print from me yet.  I'm not sure if I had your address previously or 
not.
If this message prints twice, I still have not figured out how to stop this 
from happening in aol.  If anyone knows how to fix this let me know.  Sorry 
about the virus posting a while back, it was originally a message which I 
received from a relative so I thought it was for real, but then I found out 
it was all a hoax.  
best wishes all
Sarah


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From: "JEANNE N CHASE" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:11:29 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16499] Re: More on Exhibitions 

Josephine

What a fantastic format for the exchanges. I especially like the format for
the "What Is A Print" exchange. I had to bookmark this one so that I could
go back and enlarge all of the thumbnails to enjoy them one by one.
thanks for all of the hard work that you do on Print Australia, What a neat
group of artists!!!

Am anxious to hear about the next exchange in all forms of printmaking.

Jeanne N.


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From: Princess Rashid <prashid@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:24:28 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16500] Re: art vs other stuff 

I agree with Bill  that web sites are a good investment  over the long term. I
have to believe that. We are living in a new age and the internet is one of the
primary mediums. I don't believe that web sites are inefficient in marketing , I
think it is the our approach to using this tool that may be the problem right
now.

For. ex.  a while back I was involve in a  very successful MLM catalog business
that was making a transition to the internet. This time was very exciting for
the distributors and the parent catalog company. Everything was in
place..warehouse , distribution networks. The web site design was done by
Microsoft and a few other computer wizards.....everything  that could be done
was done to ensure the successful opening in this new phase of business. An
entirely new company was created focusing on internet sales and
service....streamlining service to the customer for the distributor.  Ok ... the
only problem I saw was that the distributors I was involved with "overestimated
and underestimated" the web environment.

They  overestimated how easy it would be to sell over the web. I'm talking about
1000's of name brand products. From suits to soap.  Should be easy right?
....But You still have to get the prospective client  to the site....And once
they get to the site...you have to get them not just to browse .....but click on
"purchase".  Saying "Hey check out this site" to friends, family and associates
ain't going to do it.   And "hits" don't mean sales.

I believe what was underestimated was the need for educating the client.
Clients have to know enough about the product to buy it. The not-so-subtle
manipulation power that TV commercials have in marketing to the public is not
available to the web platform. I think that's good.  Because I, for one, would
like to think  that my client made the purchase that was the right choice for
him not because I manipulated him in to it.

The parallel here is of course..the need for us to use the web to educate our
clients and potential clients about ourselves, and our work and show them the
value of art in their own lives.  WE can do it.  It will takes creative
thinking...a new way of approaching our clients and our presentation.

I make art because I want to communicate and help my fellow man to Think. Sure I
want to make a living doing that. I'm a idealist..so I believe that where
there's a will there's a way. It may take my lifetime to figure out what works
but this is the journey I have chosen.

E-business is uncharted territory. We are the pioneers.  I think that we are
definitely in a trial and error phase. But its just a phase....

Princess



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From: Mike Lyon <mikelyon@mlyon.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:23:38 -0600
Subject: [Baren 16501] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1655 


>From: "April Vollmer" <april@aprilvollmer.com>
>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:24:23 -0500
>Subject: [Baren 16491] Digesting Images
>
>Mike, I think you sent your information for Carol on GIFs vs JPEGs to us all
>in error. Of course the digest can't digest images, so more code. But I did
>enjoy reading your clear description of the issue. A well designed website
>is like a well designed woodcut, efficient and to the point. (Though I
>suppose we all find woodcut technique more interesting!)
>
>Could you recommend any books on website design, since you seem to have a
>good grasp? I have help with my site, but would like to understand the
>issues better.

You are right, I goofed when I sent my note to Carol to Baren.  That should 
warn you off right away!  I am sorry to say that, although I have purchased 
and read a number of books on web site design, I can recommend not a single 
one of them.  Every one I've seen pretty much sucks.  The manuals which 
come with HTML editors are somewhat more illuminating.  Reading the source 
from web pages I admire can be even more helpful.

As I have read from pedantic Graham many times, "Practice, practice, 
practice, and practice some more!"  Well, OK, before Graham blasts me for 
libeling him (I mean, labeling...  labeling!) pedantic and reveals that he 
never once wrote the quote above, I'll have to admit that I made up the 
quote myself, but I can hear him saying it (although I've never actually 
heard his voice, of course) or something like it...

Really -- after graduating from art school a couple of times, I 'sold out' 
and joined the business world for 15 or 18 years.  One of the first 
projects I undertook was the design and construction of some 'harsh 
environment' data entry terminals -- this was in the mid-1970's -- and 
there wasn't anything available 'off the shelf', so I sorta 
self-educated...  First I built a little computer based around the RCA 1802 
microprocessor.  It had 256 bytes of RAM (yes, 256 bytes -- not kb, not mb, 
not gb....  just plain old 'b') and I programmed it to draw fancy pictures 
on my TV screen. It didn't work at first, and debugging it really taught me 
a ton.  Then I bought an early HP programmable calculator and learned to 
program it.  Then I wrote an invoicing system in basic on a mini-computer I 
had purchased for my business for about $80,000.  Then another guy (more 
self-educated than I was) and I designed and built the harsh environment 
data entry system -- my art background came in handy when I silk-screened 
the conductive surfaces on each side of pieces of glass to make our 
capacitance switches for early touch panels (like microwave ovens and 
elevator buttons).  Then, when the prototype seemed to be working well, we 
plugged it into our $80,000 mini-computer, had the ground and neutrals 
reversed on the power plug, and -- even though we had protected the 
mini-computer with a very expensive opto-isolator board, the hot sneaked in 
through the ground and the mini-computer (and our proto-type) caught fire 
and burned up!  You can imagine how surprising that was!  In an amazing 
display of perseverance, we convinced the insurance company to pay us, 
replaced our charred mini-computer, re-built the hand-made stuff, and got 
the thing working.  In the process, I had learned to program in machine 
code on several processors, assembler, fortran, basic, and eventually FORTH 
and also some elementary digital circuit design.  Anyway, I've been playing 
with PC's (not MACs, Graham -- we used to tell our computer clients that if 
you had more money than brains, go buy a MAC -- butI know that it's all 
very different today...  and we kept the part about burning up the 
minicomputer secret from one and all!) for most of my adult life.

So...  to cut a long story off near the beginning, I've had quite a lot of 
practical experience, sorta grew up with the very first networks and early 
internet email and later the web, and so I've been practicing a relatively 
long time at this stuff.

Today I use primarily Macromedia FLASH! (moving pictures and sound), Adobe 
Photoshop (bitmaps), Corel Draw (vector graphics), and Microsoft FrontPage 
(web design).  Each of these represents an ENORMOUS development effort and 
many major revisions along the way, and there is a significant learning 
curve to become proficient with any of them.

So...  repeat after Graham  ( < ;      if you want to become 
proficient...  Practice, practice, practice !!

After reading this over, I don't think I've been very helpful, and have 
broken my New Year's resolution not to talk just to hear my own voice.  Oh, 
well, better luck next year!

Mike

Mike Lyon
mailto:mikelyon@mlyon.com
http://www.mlyon.com 

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From: Graham <gscholes@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:03:33 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16502] Re: Baren Digest V17 #1655 

>Mike Lyon wrote.....
>As I have read from pedantic Graham many times,

Did you use the wrong word mike????

pedantic
    noun  ped+ants
            : one who is too concerned with or shows off his learning

May god bless you

Graham


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From: Graham <gscholes@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:20:57 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16503] Re: art vs other stuff 

I like your contribution...

Thanks,

pedantic
Graham


>I agree with Bill  that web sites are a good investment  over the long term. I
>have to believe that. We are living in a new age and the internet is one of the
>primary mediums. I don't believe that web sites are inefficient in marketing , I
>think it is the our approach to using this tool that may be the problem right
>now.


------------------------------

From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi.chukran@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:13:12 -0500
Subject: [Baren 16504] Re: art vs other stuff 

Princess wrote:


>I agree with Bill  that web sites are a good investment  over the long term. I
>have to believe that. We are living in a new age and the internet is one
>of the
>primary mediums. I don't believe that web sites are inefficient in
>marketing , I
>think it is the our approach to using this tool that may be the problem
>right now.>>


YES!  I totally agree.  Like I said before, web marketing doesn't follow
all the old rules about sales or marketing, or how to reach people.  It's a
whole new world.  If I didn't see other artists/craftspeople doing well on
the web, I might say it couldn't be done, either.  But I am!  People are
selling art, and handmade crafts, and selling quite well.  And not only to
individuals, but galleries are also seeking them out that way, and
manufacturers are finding them through search engines and commissioning
art, illustrators are getting jobs from publishers that way, etc. etc. etc.


> Ok ... the
>only problem I saw was that the distributors I was involved with
>"overestimated
>and underestimated" the web environment.


Lots of large companies have poured millions of dollars into websites, and
for them, it hasn't paid off.  I have a "grassroots marketing" theory that
I've always used.  I do my own work, take my own photos, etc., and don't
pay anybody anything except my ISP and my web hosting company.  I rely on
press releases, sending photos to editors, etc. And compared to
advertising, that cost is pretty low.


>....But You still have to get the prospective client  to the site....And once
>they get to the site...you have to get them not just to browse .....but
>click on
>"purchase".  Saying "Hey check out this site" to friends, family and
>associates
>ain't going to do it.   And "hits" don't mean sales.


Exactly.  I think that having a website is like having a retail store.
Just because it sits there doesn't mean that people will find it.  You have
to provide them an address, advertise to get them there, have something
they really want to buy or own, and then keep after them to come back over
and over.


>I believe what was underestimated was the need for educating the client.>>


This is much more important now, because the customer can't pick up the
object and look at it, touch it, etc.  All they have to go by are photos.
If the text on your website explains the process, gives detailed
descriptions of the products there, the item becomes more real in the
customer's mind, and hopefully will lead to a sale.  And especially if you
do something unique, like woodblock printing, you really need to explain
yourself, because most people have never seen a real woodblock print.


>> WE can do it.  It will takes creative

>thinking...a new way of approaching our clients and our presentation.


Right.  We are creative, otherwise we wouldn't be involved in the arts.  I
take it as a challenge to make my website profitable.  I'm not arguing with
you who say it can't be done just for the sake of argument.  I really
believe that it can be done.  It'll take some time, but I think it can be
done.


>It may take my lifetime to figure out what works
>but this is the journey I have chosen.


Right <G>.  Hopefully, it won't take us that long....The people I know who
are doing well have spent about three years building up their sites,
submitting them to search engines, etc.  Now they're doing well.


>E-business is uncharted territory. We are the pioneers.  I think that we are
>definitely in a trial and error phase. But its just a phase....


Exactly....especially when it comes to selling art.  Because people are
used to mail-order catalogs, and have been buying from them for years.  But
not especially buying art that way.  I see my website as nothing more than
an electronic mail-order catalog....except it's a lot less expensive to
"print" and to distribute to customers.

Bobbi C.
- -------------
http://www.BobbiChukran.com/newwork2.html





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From: Pedrobot@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:45:56 EST
Subject: [Baren 16505] Horse List Update 

Due to a variety of technical problems, I have been really slow in updating 
the Year of the Horse Exchange list.  One of these problems is that my server 
went down.  The page is now up to date, and has been relocated to:

http://www.geocities.com/pedrobot2000/horse/

I did not get a chance to respond to many of the e-mails that you have sent 
me since the last update, and I ask your forgiveness for that.  I have 
updated the page fully with all of the information that I have received.  If 
yours got lost in the shuffle, again, I beg your forgiveness and ask that you 
resend it to me.  The updates will be much quicker from this point on.

- --Pete

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From: "Bea Gold" <bnj50@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:09:34 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16506] Re: Horse List 

Hi Pete, Thanks for the up-date - Hope all is well with you.  Do you know
Julio also did an update for Horsies?  Here's my address :

Bea Gold
2206 Micheltorena Street
Los Angeles,  CA 90039

Phone (323) 660-0106



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From: Graham <gscholes@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:35:31 -0800
Subject: [Baren 16507] Re: Digesting Images 

April,

If you are interested in constructing a site Adobe has all the instructions on line.
You need to purchase their software  Adobe GoAlive 5. and you are in business.
It is an excellent program.  Even works with your computer thingie.

The site at
http://www.adobe.com/web/tips/glvvtco/main.html
is an in depth tutorial in the use of the product.  It explains everything about
setting up a web page and does it with Apple QuickTime movies and clear dialogue.
With the fabulous Apple invention, it works very nicely in the Dark Side of Windoz,
you can stop and start and work along with the tutorial. You will be an expert in
no time.

Oh and Mike, your explanation was interesting however may I suggest not to write off
gifs.   There main purpose on the web is for thumbnails and to create interlace and assorted
dithered images as well as the flash happenings.  They can be made very small and because
of the reduced number of colours can build very quickly on a site. All of the small
images on my site are gifs. I made most of these before Photoshop 6 and range around
30K  When (someday) I remake them at 128 no dither gifs they will come in at
4K  (in real count of 1.171 bytes)  up to 8K or 6,412 bytes.  I will not get into explaining
why the count is rounded off in larger numbers.
Rule of thumb..... Small image - use gifs  Large image - use jpegs

Sorry but this is far more interesting and useful than digital inkjet
print discussions.

Oh I'm in deep do do again.


Graham



>Mike, I think you sent your information for Carol on GIFs vs JPEGs to us all
>in error. Of course the digest can't digest images, so more code. But I did
>enjoy reading your clear description of the issue. A well designed website
>is like a well designed woodcut, efficient and to the point. (Though I
>suppose we all find woodcut technique more interesting!)
>
>Could you recommend any books on website design, since you seem to have a
>good grasp? I have help with my site, but would like to understand the
>issues better.
>
>best,
>
>April
>www.aprilvollmer.com



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From: Cate-Earthlink <cate108@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 00:29:26 -0600
Subject: [Baren 16508] Patience please 

Hello All,

This last year has been wild for me.  As a result, I am late for the snake
exchange.  My plan was to get them out before Christmas and sign up for the
horse exchange.  Well, I am a little behind on this plan and I see that the
sign up deadline for the horse exchange is rapidly galloping towards us.

If no one objects, I would like to sign up for the horse exchange and
promise to get my little snakies out in January (before the year of the
snake is finished).

Please feel free to write to me at cate108@earthlink.net if you have any
concerns.

Thank you for your patience,

Cate


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End of Baren Digest V17 #1656
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