Baren Digest               Sunday, 19 August 2001       Volume 16 : Number 1526


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: GWohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:25:03 -0400
Subject: [Baren 15418] Re:  Speedball Ink 

Dan Dew's message to Speedball:
>... As I
> said, I am constantly teased for used your "student grade/quality" inks.
> Attached are the e-mails that started the latest round of discussions.  I
> thought you should read them yourself.  I would like any response to be by
> e-mail so I can share them with everyone in my group, if that's O.K. with
> you?...

Dan, I'm thinking Speedball's going to be your ink no matter what anyone
else uses or likes :-).  I used Speedball when I was in classes at
Lakeland College until my teacher, Deb Steytler, told me about other
inks to try.  I switched because of the way the other inks handled and
the way they looked when dry.  It's a personal preference for me. 
People are still encouraging me to use other than Speedball brayers but
I use them because I can afford them.  Maybe that's the bottom line.  I
use lots of brayers, and I cannot afford lots of brayers of the good
kind.  I would not like to keep cleaning up the one good wonderful
brayer in order to print  another color, only to do it again and again.
I do all my colors successively while the paper is taped to the
registration board.  Can you imagine the work that would require?

Gayle

------------------------------

From: "Garth Hammond" <Garthart@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:48:05 -0600

RE:  I am constantly teased for used your "student grade/quality" inks

Time for a little man to man talk here Dan, Get over it.  People are telling
you what their experience is and that the product you use is low quality.
What the hell do you expect from this Speedball Rep?  Do you want him to say
"tut tut those poor deluded people .........."  If I had sent one of those
messages I would be hot on your trail.  I don't use Speedball because it is
shit.(so much for the language police)  I use Graphic Chem because it is a
premier product.

Garth


------------------------------

From: "bemason" <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:21:50 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15420] Speedball 

Dan and all,
I find this discourse on Speedball pretty interesting. I have used it for
years in working with kids and have also used it in my own early work. I
went into my archives, (bottom of the bottom drawer of the flat files) and
found work done it speedball 20 years ago. It was not faded and this piece
had hung in my home for about 5 years before going into the flat files. So
if that is the criteria we are using here, I guess it does not fade as much
as we thought.

I think speedball ink is not as pigminted as I would like and the color
choice is very limited, however it is a good product. I prefer other inks
now for my work and use Graphic Chemical litho ink. I love working with
transparent ink and with litho ink, which is very highly pigmented, I can
get very, very transparent ink without losing the intensity of the color.
This does not make speedball bad, just different. I think it is not as easy
to work with as other inks, as it dries quicklly even with extender in it. I
have found that Graphic Chemical's water soluble vehicle keeps it workable
the longest. I do lots of volunteer work in the schools and with out
speedball ink I would just be washed up as a printmaking teacher with a
protable dog and pony show. So I LOVE speedball ink, for its true rewetting
capapbilities and its true non-toxic properties. I do think it would be
interesting to find out what is in it. Perhaps if we all lobbied the
Speedball Co. they would make a few artist colors and add more pigment to
the ink. Maybe a second more expensive line. You never know until you try. I
do like the way it rolls out, there are such good things about it, just not
enough color choice or pigment loading.

Createx tried to make an ink that had lots of colors for monotype, but it
was really, really, really bad. I know of very few people who like it, but
the ones that do really like it. So I guess it is just what works for each
artist.
So there is my 2 cents worth.....everything has good qualities for certain
applications.
Best to all,
Barbara


------------------------------

From: GraphChem@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:12:37 EDT
Subject: [Baren 15421] Re: Speedball 

Speedball has a premium quality ink in the works. I don't know if it's still 
an active project, but I worked with the prototype about a year ago. I will 
contact them (but probably not until I return from the IMPACT show) for an 
update. In the meantime, Dan if you talk to Al, ask him if its still in 
development?

Dean

------------------------------
From: "eli griggs" <eli.griggs@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:14:43 -0400
Subject: [Baren 15422] Re: FW: Ink Quality boundary
FW: Ink QualityHi there:

Dan, getting Speedball to share with us the nature of their pigments, is 
a good thing and will help put aside questions about their product.
Perhaps Speedball will one day take the additional measure of putting
that info. on their packaging and website or putting out a fact sheet
for those who request one?

I also wrote inquires to other companies about products. 

Kathy Wedell at Dick Blick responded to my questions, which included a 
request for them to post on line, info. about pigment numbers,  with the 
following.

Speedball manufactures our block printing inks. They can be reached at
1-800-898-7224. We do not have any chart here at Blick. I can give your
suggestion to our web designers. Thank you for thinking of us.
Kathy

Richard Wagstaff at T N Lawrence & Son ltd responded with:

I've just been onto the factory for this data and I should have it in a
day,
or two.  We will eventually put the information on our website, but to 
save
you waiting, I can forward you a copy of the Microsoft Excel file
containing
all the information as soon as I receive it.

Robert Gamblin wrote back:

All of our Etching Inks are made with Lightfastness I pigments. The 
color is
as good as it gets.  Send me your address and I'll send you the color
charts.  The color charts lists pigment    id numbers

Sincerely,  Robert Gamblin

I believe that Gamblin has always made info. about their products 
public, but because I was unable to locate some literature I have 
collected about different products, over the years, I went ahead and 
wrote to them.

It has been my experience that most companies recognise the importance 
of letting artists know just what it is that they are buying and will 
bend over backwards to get fact sheets into the hands of their 
customers. 

Recently I had questions about an ink pigment and binder made by Daniel 
Smith and how it might affect the shellac surface of my wood blocks.  
The company responded to all my questions, even though they had go to 
their chemist for the answers.

That sort of customer service is typical, in my experience, of suppliers 
of artist materials and should be expected as the norm, not the 
exception!

When I responded to Dan's question about Speedball ink and stated my 
opinion that companies that will not share the nature of their pigments 
with artist should be boycotted, a number of people responded with 
'testimonials, including at least one mention of the samples of Graphic 
Chemical's w/s ink.

I too, had asked for and received one of these samples, for which I am 
grateful.  I used that ink and liked the results enough to buy more, 
even though there is no indication as to the pigment.  I have used this 
ink in the last several exchanges that I have taken part in and have 
indicated publicly how much I like it.  I will likely order more and 
feel just fine recommending it to others.

I do not consider this to be a contradiction to my belief that it is 
important that an artist know the nature of the materials they are 
using.

Black and white pigments are generally an exception that I am willing to 
accept.  These pigments are pretty simple and, I believe,  hard to get 
wrong.  I have enough confidence in my knowledge of pigments to do 
without specific pigment numbers in this case.

Having said that, I will clear up what I meant when I wrote:

> Companies that claim that disclosing what pigments and binders (oils, 
gums,
> resins, dryers, etc) are use to make them will compromise their 
secrets
> should be avoided like a plague.  That company's products should be
> boycotted.

I am opining that those inks, paints, pigments that are not clearly 
identified, should be boycotted until the companies that produce them, 
do so.  Pigment selection, for those artists who wish to create 
permanent works of art, is a major consideration and fundamental in 
every way to art.

It is one thing to have a 'feel good' attitude about a mystery pigment 
which you enjoy using and take, on faith, that it will not change and in 
doing so, 'rewrite' your art, somewhere down the line.

It is quite a different matter to know-for-a-fact what it is that you 
are using!

Artist and student grade pigments include both lightfast and fugitive 
pigments, with degrees in between.  In some cases they are identical but
in many they are not.

Opaqueness and transparency should be a matter of pigment quality, not 
cheap fillers.

Within pigment 'families' there can be important variations and the only 
way an artist can know if a costly or cheap grade of, for example, 
cadmium has been used, is by the pigment number.

Knowing what should be in a colour and how it behaves, allows the artist
to make choices.  Many artists use fugitive colours, knowing full well 
what they are doing.

I myself keep Rose Madder Genuine on my watercolour pallet, doing so 
because I like its' smell and the gentle nature of its' hue.

It may not be the smartest choice ,but it is an informed choice!

So there is no misunderstanding, I will say to all, that I consider Dean 
and Graphic Chemical to be important members of Baren.  I have often 
enjoyed the benefit of their presence on this forum, and hope they will 
continue to take part in these lively discussions.

Other than the pigments in question, I will still go to Graphic Chemical 
for many of my printing needs, including their excellent selection of 
Charbonnel inks.

Even if Graphic Chemical will not make its' pigments public, perhaps 
they will consider posting the Lightfastness of their products.  That 
action would be helpful to artists and still allow them to keep their 
manufacturing secrets.

Having said that I will close with a partial list of companies that do 
disclose the nature of their pigments.  I am mainly going on memory, so
if I make an error, let me know.

Included are makers/sellers of dry pigments, inks, watercolour, oil and 
acrylic paints.  I know that woodcut and lino artist use such products.

Maimeri
Schmincke
Winsor & Newton
Gamblin
Davinci
Charbonnel
Kremer Pigments
Golden
Williamsburg
Old Holland (they have 4 'process colours' in their oil paint line that 
some might find interesting )
Sennelier
Holbein
Daniel Smith
Daler Rowney
Blockx
Weber
Grumbacher
Lascaux
Liquitex

Cheers,

Eli



------------------------------

From: Chromoxylo@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:15:20 EDT
Subject: [Baren 15423] Re: Ink Quality 

Maybe I am just new to the group, but it seems to me that the testiness and 
constant harping on this subject is getting extreme. In thirty years of being 
a printer I have never once been denied pertinent information concerning ink 
pigments from any ink manufacturer, in fact I regularly order special inks 
with lightfast qualities. I have been denied specific formulas from the same 
manufacturers as those are trade secrects, but every one I have dealt with 
will go out of their way to solve any inking problem I might have. Ink 
formulas as well as paint formulas vary as to application, and process (ie. 
etching inks don't always work for relief, relief for serigraph, etc...). 
Some inks will work for cross purposes, but if there are problems or 
questions the manufacturers can be expected to know the answers - and do! 
Although I don't currently use Speedball Inks or products from Graphic Chem. 
I would humbly defer to their expertise - that is why they are there. If 
their product was so inferior they would be out of business. Sure, educate 
yourselves about pigments and lightfastness and find products that work well 
for your purposes, but don't threaten boycotts when the companies are 
protecting their livelihood. What works well for one artist may not be 
suitable for another, that dosen't give any license to be abusive. I recently 
left a letterpress list for the very same reason (or lack thereof).

Paul Ritscher


------------------------------

From: "Jim Bryant" <jim.bryant@enmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:56:24 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15424] Re: Whelan press 

Hi Shireen,

My limited experience with a Whelan Press (about a week earlier this year)
is that they are generally good presses, especially considering the price. I
found the most difficult aspect of using them in editioning, because the
roller and wheel travel and the bed is stationary; to print you must walk
with the wheel the length of the press, then after each print you have to
walk around to the other side of the press to pull the print. (The wheel and
roller block you from simply lifting the paper off of the
block/plate/whatever.)

When giving the choice, I bought a Takach.

jim-

- ----------
>From: Shireen Holman <shireenh@earthlink.net>
>To: baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp
>Subject: [Baren 15412] Whelan press
>Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001, 1:38 PM
>

> Hello everyone,
> Does anyone have a Whelan press, and if so, do you like it or not and what
> do you like or not like about it? I saw one at the Southern Graphics
> Council conference in March - its advantages seem to be that it takes up
> less room than other presses, and it weighs a whole lot less (definitely an
> advantage!) I know this is a forum for using a baren, but I think I'm still
> a press person.
> Shireen
>
> ***********************************************
> Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist
> email: shireenh@earthlink.net
> http://www.shireenholman.com
> ***********************************************

------------------------------

From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:21:15 EDT
Subject: [Baren 15425] Re:  Speedball Ink 

The "language police" are respondinmg and objecting to your language.  That 
is not like the Bareners!!
Carol Lyons 

------------------------------

From: "Robert" <rcg@robertcanagagallery.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:23:57 -0700
Subject: [Baren 15426] Paper ?

Hi,
Does anyone know anything about Viet Namese papers?
nothing about the type of fibers they use, how stable it is, etc.
Cambodia that was as good as Gampi or kozo.

Thanks
Robert Canaga

fellow Oregonians would be interested.



------------------------------

From: "Garth Hammond" <Garthart@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:33:53 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15427] Re: Ink Quality 

RE:. What works well for one artist may not be
suitable for another, that dosen't give any license to be abusive. I
recently
left a letterpress list for the very same reason (or lack thereof).

Paul Ritscher
 Paul,  Dan has beating this horse to death for 2 months or more.  If you
find direct communication abusive then that is how you view it.  Because you
believe something doesn't make it true.  From my point of view he keeps
trying to loop the site into telling him its OK to do something.  Now he is
using the communication on the site to drag someone else into the drama.  I
don't use Speedball because I don't like it. It doesn't work for me.  From
my point of view what Dan wants to hear is the he is right and Speedball is
a good ink and balh blah blah.  If you ask for feedback don't be acting all
shocked when you get it.

Garth


------------------------------

From: "Garth Hammond" <Garthart@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:36:17 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15428] Re: Whelan press 

When giving the choice, I bought a Takach

Jim,

when you compared the Takach and the Whelan what was the price diferential
you were looking at?  Can you give us some more information so someone
facing a cost benefit decision could start thinking that through?

Garth


------------------------------

From: "Jim Bryant" <jim.bryant@enmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:40:35 -0600
Subject: [Baren 15429] Re: Whelan press 

Garth,

Unfortunately, the cost difference for the same size press bed is twice as
much for the takach. (just under $6000 for the Whelan, just under $12,000
for the Takach, shipping not included.) I was buying for a school and had to
consider longevity--in the end i felt like the Takach is a sturdier press
for heavy duty use (and abuse) that college students might give it.

The Whelan seemed like an excellent press for someone who doesn't use a
press that often (for example, someone who often uses a Baren instead). Or a
school where the painting or design students have a printing project, but
aren't spending the entire semester using the press.

Also good for someone without a lot of space--the Whelan can be rolled away
into a corner, even tipped up on its end. The Takach isn't moving from its
spot without six big guys or a fork lift.

jim-

- ----------
>From: "Garth Hammond" <Garthart@earthlink.net>
>To: <baren@ml.asahi-net.or.jp>
>Subject: [Baren 15428] Re: Whelan press
>Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001, 6:36 PM
>

> When giving the choice, I bought a Takach
>
> Jim,
>
> when you compared the Takach and the Whelan what was the price diferential
> you were looking at?  Can you give us some more information so someone
> facing a cost benefit decision could start thinking that through?
>
> Garth

------------------------------

End of Baren Digest V16 #1526
*****************************