Baren Digest Sunday, 14 January 2001 Volume 14 : Number 1285 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:04:39 -0400 Subject: [Baren 12952] Coming and Going Now that Graham is gone (or at least quiet;-) I can say something that has been irritating me about the recurrent discussion of digital printing. This is not a forum on that topic, but the digital revolution relates to all of us as printmakers. I have printed etchings, I have printed silkscreens, I have printed a lot of hanga woodcuts, and I confess I have printed a growing number of digital prints. I spend a great deal of time, effort and expense on truly understanding whatever medium I use. Hanga woodcut cannot compare to any other technique for color, texture and the subtle interaction between paper and pigment. It is a technique of incredible refinement and historical resonance as well. HOWEVER, in spite of the commercial or reproductive nature of much digital printing, it is just possible to make prints using a computer. Fooling around with your Epson ink jet is NOT what I mean. And PLEASE do not use the term 'giclee' ! it's a tongue in cheek description of an Iris print as a 'little squirt' connotating ejaculation. (An Iris printer is a large scale, high end ink jet that sprays ink.) It is ridiculous that people use the word as if it were a description of some serious French art form. Can we PLEASE identify digital prints by the printer they were printed on????? Saying someting is an Iris print is much more specific and descriptive. It is a digital print printed on an Iris printer. That is useful information! If I print the same digital file on an HP 2500 or on an Epson printer it will look different and BE different. The paper and inkset (Lysonic, pigments, etc) also make a huge difference in look and longevity. They should be noted for a complete description of a digital print. Like any technique, you get out what you put in. April Vollmer 174 Eldridge St, NYC 10002, 212-677-5691 http://www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:20:53 -0800 Subject: [Baren 12953] #8 I say anyone who has their prints in this early deserves a kick! I know someone has to be first, but why am I always down to the wire????? RATS Barabara ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:34:49 -0800 Subject: [Baren 12954] Iris Prints April, Very well said. Original work scanned on a drum scanner will be quiet a bit better that what one can do on a home scanner. Printed in a commercial shop with huge printers and archival paper and the best ink available will also be different that what one does at home. Work actually done in a computer and printed out is real work, by the artist, printed with new technology. Copies that are scanned from other work are copies, no matter how you phrase it. Barbara Patera of our own list has done some amazing work I have seen on other sites. To disregard this new technology is foolish, it is not going away. However, as you said, hanga woodcuts are lovely and "incredible refinement and historical resonance" certainly sums it up. I personally am like you in that I am committed to whatever I am doing at the moment and want to know all there is to know about it. I probably won't live long enough to really learn to do hanga well, but I am glad I made the effort to learn what I now know and my appreciation of it has gone up about 1000%. The second wonderful hanga reward had been getting to know the people on this listserve. 200-300 people all appreciating the same thing and willing to share their appreciation and knowledge is a rare and special thing. I don't think I am kidding when I say this is the best printmaking list out there. Best to all, Barbara Mason ------------------------------ From: Greg Carter Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:00:09 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12956] Re: Coming and Going I have to strongly agree with April, As I have said a few times on Baren as we compare processes, it is not so much the specific process but matching up the artist's idea to the one that will work best for that specific idea. Greg Carter. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:18:15 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12957] Wood Sorry to stray from the current subject (not), but made a wood run yesterday to my local supplier. He had a piece of Baltic Birch 3/4" plywood. It was only $2.00 for a 8" x 20" board, so I picked it up along with some beautiful cherry wood. This is my first time with this Baltic Birch, it is the same or similar to what I've heard discussed here? Guy said the wood is sometimes referred to as Russian Birch. Oh well, I've got the next three or four images in my head, better get them out on the wood. Chop mark is carved and done. I found these cool 1" hardwood blocks at a craft store and used the endgrain to carve out the design. I will probably use them on the Exchange #8 print. Do the chop marks need to be printed perfectly, or is a little grain acceptable? Oh well, enough to kick off a good discussion today about woodblocks! dan dew tampa,fl ------------------------------ From: Shireen Holman Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12958] snakes I just got Ray's snake giving birth to the moon, and I was quite pleasantly surprised because my snake has a moon in it, too! Is this part of a legend you were using, Ray? My snakes are all ready to go; I just need to put them all in envelopes and take them to the post office. Shireen *********************************************** Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist email: shireenh@earthlink.net http://www.shireenholman.com *********************************************** ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:18:42 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12959] Coming and Going charset=ISO-8859-1 April wrote, >.... I can say something that has been irritating me about the recurrent discussion of digital >printing. This is not a forum on that topic, but the digital revolution relates to all of us as >printmakers. April, this seems to be a forum that has gotten far afield from woodblock printmaking and there doesn't seem to be too many other printing methods that haven't been touched on. Actually woodblock printmaking has been t= he least discussed topic on this forum for some time now. It's seemed more= like a social page at times. However it seems that the topic of elementary woodblock printing techniques has been covered so thoroughly in the past that most discussion might seem redundant. That and the wonderfully packed Encyclopedia has just about covered everything, it seems. Therefore, until some new topic concerning woodblock printing pops up, we keep going by injecting other topics into the conversation. As long as you mentioned inkjet printing, which hits my button, I thought I might toss a few thoughts in as well. This site is dedicated to woodblock printing, which is a method of _printing_. It also has enough of its own personal characteristics to= distinguish it as an art form. An art form which because of its nature,= has a distinct influence on the look of it's finished print as well as influencing the composition of its content. Other printing techniques = do not seem _quite_ so distinct in this regard, though perhaps it is only my= lack of training in perceiving it. My point is, that woodblock printing is a printing technique. Digital printing is a printing technique also. One is manual, the other electonic with the manual component reduced to moving a mouse and clicking a button (That is not to say there is no work involved, only of a different sort. If we look strictly at these techniques of printing, I'm sure we all prefer the manual look to the electronic look. It has that depth and resonance mentioned. There is another way to look at this however. Both techniques serve to _print_ an image. If we regard the image as having qualities of its own apart from the printing techniques used to display it, we can then more objectively review the qualities of the artwork as separated from the printwork. If you print an image via woodblocks onto the wonderful Japanese paper of tradition, or print the same image by an inkjet printer on inkjet paper, we still have basically the same image. We must not forget there is an art into producing _that_ image as well as an art which goes into printing method. It is our collective belief, I think, that the image and the woodblock printing method joined together produces a work of art beyond what that same image displayed by an inkjet print can do. But for those of us who for one reason or another work on the image side only, an inkjet print can be our method of choice for the shortterm. It accomplishes getting the image out there so it can be seen. My own experimentation with this has produced startling results, at least in my own view. I look forward to having woodblock prints made of my designs in the future, because I fundamentally find the added qualities which this method of printing produces to be so significant that it would be negligence to my artistic legacy to omit them. But in the meantime, I print by inkjet. People seem to like the art in the composition itself and don't mind paying a few dollars to own one. They know what they are, no pretenses are made, but these same people would not pay the price for a woodblock print of the same image, whether because of economic reasons, or they are not art lovers to that extent. That is o.k. They are happy, and I can get a feel for the receptivity of my work by the audience on the street. ( After all, all of us are on the street at one time or another. ) I find nothing wrong in doing this, all is honest and above board. The Giclee prints which are printed in "limited editions" and sold signed by the artist for prices surpassing "original-work" prices in many cases, are an affront to both the art-buying world and the art-producing world. However, that inflated value seems to creep into the social consciousness and cause confusion and havoc with the valuation of all art, and that is very unfortunate. This is art that has crossed out of the art world and into the business world where valuation is by entirely different standards. While we are in a position to more clearly recognize the difference between those worlds, and their respective values, the person on the street is overwhelmed by the hype encountered daily from the business world, and probably has little or no concept of the artistic value of a work, either compositionally or by printing technique, and therefore is more vulnerable. When Baren members hold an exhibition somewhere in the world, where the public can come and hold one of these prints to the light, lift it to their noses to slowly inhale its scent, listen to the sound of the paper's sizing, caress these powdery feeling printings between their fingers, and see the images whose colors have entered into the translucently fibrous soul of the paper, they can only become more aware of these distinctions that separate the different methods of printing, and can therefore be in a better position to more truly value them. Gary KC USA ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:31:18 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12960] Subject Matter charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Printmakers Subject matter has come up recently. It seems that our local critic just lambasted a show because the artist's theme was "Cows". The article was about cows being "common" and art should not be common but always have a "message". Then the critic went on to say that no really good art has in it; cats, dogs or cows. Does art really have to have deep meaning to be noteworthy? I think of Monets waterlilies, did they have deep meaning. I have started to put cats and birds and other living critters in my art work, does that mean that it is not good art? Just thought I would throw this open to discussion. Oh, and how about Wegmans "Dogs"??? Lautrecs "La Chat"? Jeanne N. ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:11:58 -0800 Subject: [Baren 12961] subject matter Jeanne, How can subject matter make art bad or good? Isn't the treatment of the subject matter what makes it art in the first place????? Just because I don't do a first class job of printing can we blame the cows???Maybe. In fact I think I like that.have seen your didital drawings and will anxiously await them as woodblock prints. You can sign me up for one. I am not a fan of palm trees, as I live in the NW but sure thought your drawings of the south pacific were wonderful and so full of color. I admit I am a color junkie! Best to all, Barbara ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:39:45 -0700 Subject: [Baren 12962] Re: snakes & stuff... Gosh, Shireen, isn't it hard to get snakes in an envelope? :-) I have my snake key block carved & the other 3 blocks all pasted up. They should be ready to carve today. My #8 is carved and ready to proof & print. Things are moving along well. The discussion on digital prints is a recurring theme on Baren. After all, we *are* communicating by computers - it is only natural that we experiment with the medium. Only the future will tell what or which will be accepted and/or rejected by the art historians. However, there are a lot of people here who are just now learning about the ancient Japanese woodblock methods, and I would like to help them along as much as we can. There are many other venues to discuss digital prints. I think Gary summed up my own feelings about Hanga: [The sounds of applause! Thanks, Gary!] Wanda ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:02:12 -0800 Subject: [Baren 12963] Re: subject matter charset="iso-8859-1" All I have to say is "BULL". Bea >Jeanne, >How can subject matter make art bad or good? Isn't the treatment of the >subject matter what makes it art in the first place????? ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:18:36 -0500 Subject: [Baren 12964] Re: subject matter charset="iso-8859-1" Bea Well said!!!! Sometimes I think that the critics should all go take some art lessons. As long as your heart is in the subject matter that is what should count Anyway, I like cows. And in fact , I am going to do a woodblock print of a cow and send it to our critic. The old saying, or song , or whateverl. "It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it" is the key. Jeanne N. ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:18:01 -0800 Subject: [Baren 12965] Meet Kwee Horng charset="iso-8859-1" Dear Kwee Horng, Thank you for responding to my question. I am going to send this message to the Baren forum. Perhaps one of our more competent web people can help you get some of your work on the site. I just learned to do the Chinese method of print making and have been enjoying doing them. I also love the German expressionist work, particularly Franz Masereel's woodcut books. Both of these methods have for me a less controlled, freer feeling than the traditional hanga, which I much revere. I'm glad you'll be a part of the exchange and that you are on the forum. Talk to you again soon. Bea Gold ------------------------------ From: amoss@mindspring.com (John Amoss) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:40:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 12966] Re: Subject Matter Jeanne- You wrote: >It seems that our local critic just >lambasted a show because the artist's theme was "Cows". I wonder if portraying art critics in your work would add any meaning? :~) - -John A. ------------------------------ From: Sunnffunn@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:04:17 EST Subject: [Baren 12967] Re: Baren Digest v14 #1277 - --part1_8.eddcbc1.279200b1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you are exactly right the soap/glycerin that is coated on the plate acts exactly the way gum arabic does for watercolors. I have done both in monotype. I am suffering from a nasty cold and have not yet started that woodblock. yikes!!!! But this group is fabulous and the links you send are so wonderful to visit. How exciting that you have a mall where supplies can be ordered. I can't wait to use these cheap knives I have to start on something. And I suspect I will be ordering one day from that mall. Thanks for the advice on how to start. You are all so talented and so giving. Marilynn ------------------------------ From: b.patera@att.net Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:20:49 +0000 Subject: [Baren 12968] Re: Giclee prints You talk about getting attached to your blocks....I know that I do. In fact, have almost all of my old blocks and have even framed some of the drypoint plates that were done on copper. Have yet to decide what to do with the majority of them.....some are much nicer than the actual prints. As to the Giclees...have had some done and they look/looked great but it was for a show of computer generated art and I thought quite appropriate. Have been experimenting recently with ink jet prints (done on hosho lt.) used as pieces of chine colle in my other prints. The paper is archival and so far the ink has been lightfast. ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:38:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 12969] Re: Meet Kwee Horng Thanks, Bea, for posting Kwee's message to you! I don't know what the problem could be for posting to the group - as I have not been getting any messages in my "bounced" pile from Kwee. As far as getting pix up on the web - Maria has graciously offered to put up art for anyone who asks! What a gal! Welcome Kwee, you are certainly in the right place! Wanda ------------------------------ From: Carolyn Pflederer Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:03:05 -0600 Subject: [Baren 12970] Re: Subject Matter I say if the Creator...whatever your religion...created it , the it is one heck of a work of art. So nuts to that critic. (I know my cat thinks he's a work of art.) Next...please send input on where to put your chop/seal on your prints. I have seen some carved in the print itself, and ones added in various places on the print and under the print. When I look at the prints I do, and the usual way of matting them, there is only 1/2" of space under the print for me to sign the work and add the title and edition info. In such a case, where should I put a chop/seal...I have been playing with designs and have tried to do one that is only 1/4"+ in size to fit next to my name. The length of the image is longer, so it's a long oval or rectangle when I fool with the design. So, what do you all think, and let's hear ideas for this 1/2" space that I'm trying to work with. I love the idea of having my own personal "stamp" (seal/chop) to add to my work. Carolyn ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest v14 #1285 *****************************