Baren Digest            Wednesday, 15 November 2000    Volume 13 : Number 1215


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From: "Kinzua" <Kinzua@email.msn.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:48:58 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12090] Re:   Christmas cards charset="Windows-1252" 

Hello,
When I print cards I always take the opportunity to treat myself to some
really extravagant wonderful paper because I can get lots of little cards
out of it and at the same time find out if it would work in other ways and
be worth the investment.  Then I can congratulate myself at being really
practical;).
A few years ago I licensed a couple of my textile prints to Sunrise
Publications for Christmas cards.  It was an interesting experience but not
very financially rewarding, and I ended up making things that were not me at
all.  On the other hand I've had very good experiences licensing other work
that already existed and wasn't made to order.  Anyone else have licensing
tales to share?

Karen
http://homepages.msn.com/timessquare/kfberkenfeld/






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From: Ruth Oprean-Cardillo <ruthonly@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:56:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baren 12091] Re: Anyone in  S.F.? 

Hello!  This sounds like an adventure to me!  I will
tell you more about myself when we meet...I do paint,
draw print and had recently started working on my
first wood block when i cam across the Baren forum...I
am busy with a 4yr, old 7yr and doing some art
teaching on grant money in the SF schools... i work on
my own work slowly but make a daily commitment to show
up for myself even if it just means 15min.... I have
always loved woodblock prints ...now intrigued more
than ever as I read statements and view art from like
minded people!  I am not far from Howard st.. located
at 29th and Sanchez... there are some excellent print
shows at both the Legion of Honor and SFMOMA... in
addition I would like to see the show in Berkeley as
well ....wait to hear from you... sincerely, ruth.

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:21:09 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12092] Re: Christmas cards and textile printing 

Re Xmas cards, etc.......I also have used the same method described by Carol,
that is the plain Strathmore cards and envelopes as a backing to the print
itself which is done on better quality paper and attached via clear corners.
Strathmore has a large package which I believes contains 50 blank 4X6 cards (and
a fancy pen). It runs approx. $12-15 for the cards, plus another $4.00 for a
roll of 250 clear/acidfree mounting corners.

Karen:
Just finished looking thru your website with the beautiful samples of
hand-printed quilts and other works.
http://homepages.msn.com/timessquare/kfberkenfeld/

Very fascinating and captivating imagery....thank you.....particularly enjoyed
"Amber Moon" and  "American Pie".... Are there books you can recommend that get
more into the how-to part of the process.......or perhaps a website on how-to ?

Julio






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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:38:39 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12093] Re: Who's doing the counting ? 

No, not a post about the ongoing US presidential elections, but rather a request
for clarification on a printing problem. A few posts back someone asked for help
and standards on "pricing"  of prints and there was some very good discussion
and personal guidelines that came out of that. Sadly, I don't have that problem
or need (how-to-price) to content with {;-). I am however someone stumped at a
somewhat similar issue.....that is...

How do you go about setting a limit to your edition size?

Mind here, that I am not asking wether to edition or not, what's better for Art,
humanity, printmakers, the history of editioning, the rules of the game....or
any of the other related issues that have been covered here time and time again.
What I want to know is simply (for those of you that do editions )... how do you
determine to set a limit of  10, 50, 500 or 5000 prints ?  Is it gut feel ? Is
it the going trend for the particular art style you work in ?....Is it the size
and amount of effort to create the print ?

Part of the problem I am having is that I find it somewhat misleading for me
(and whatever public I may reach) to label a print  1/50...or  23/100 when I
don't know if I will ever get to make/print more of a particular print. While I
understand that the accepted norm is to print a few proofs and prints and the
rest of the edition only on demand, I find this practice a little misleading. I
understand the reasons behind it and certainly agree that there is no purpose to
use up paper & ink, do 100 prints that may forever sit in your storage drawers
awaiting for future buyers. But a year or two from now (or maybe 10-25 years
from now) a buyer would have no way of knowing wether I ever printed the whole
edition or not.....all he/she has to go on is that little set of numbers on the
print.....4/250..????? perhaps only four prints were ever printed! or perhaps
the artist became popular and he sold out all 250. While some artist keep
meticulous records, others don't.....and how would you ever find out once a
print changes hands or goes out to gallery-land ?

What if the artist sets a limit of 500 prints for an edition...makes an original
batch of 20 prints (labeled 1/500 - 20/500) and then gets run over by a truck
the next day ?  Where is the accountability in this system ?

The fact that I am somewhat of a naive novice at printmaking, guides me to put
the whole effort of "creating" a print into the here-and-now. Whatever passion I
feel for the current work, exists now....while my mind and body are immersed in
the process of creating multiples...with this printing and with this batch,
trying to keep the batch as alike as possible while still understanding the
limitations of the medium.

I have no way of knowing how my feelings for a print will change overtime, how
my printing skills will (or not!) improve overtime...or how the materials used
(even if kept in storage) will change in a few years. But certainly was I to
make more of my exchange prints (taken only as an example here) for selling down
the line, I probably would not be as driven as the first time around......maybe.
Perhaps this is just a simple as a division of labor.....that being...the
everlasting conflict between the artist/creator and that of the
printmaker/businessman residing inside everyone of us.......for now I am content
with labeling my edition prints at whatever limits I complete within the
boundaries of the here-and-now.

Just curious as to what drives YOU to set your edition size and why.......

Thanks.







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From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:42:54 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12094] San Francisco visit charset="iso-8859-1" 

I donate my house in Richmond for a get-together for the San Francisco
printmaking contingent on the evening of November 25, from 6pm on.  Golly!
that means I have to start house cleaning now!  RSVP and please e-mail me
for the address.  jeaneger@lanminds.com

Jean Eger-Womack
http://users.lanminds.com/~jeaneger




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From: barbara patera <b.patera@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:24:21 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [Baren 12095] re: editioning 

Julio, 

A great question and one that I think each artist has to answer for themself.  Personally I would go nuts, insane, 
crazy if I tried to print more than 50 of any one work..... so that is my limit and even with this number I am in 
danger of becoming one of those who is run over before finishing an edition. Sometimes wish for more patience, 
as have sold out of some prints quickly, but in all am glad for the self-knowledge that allows me to set reasonable 
limits for myself.

Barbara P.



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From: B Mason <bemason@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:07:57 -0800
Subject: [Baren 12096] editions 

Julio,
These are good questions. I think Barbara P is right, it is up to the
individual artist. Most artists, when starting out print small editions
because of the cost of the paper. As you develop your reputation and
make sales, you print more. Also if you get one you really love you
print more. I think 25 of anything is a lot and would never do more than
that except for an exchange. If I liked the print a lot and the exchange
was 30, I might print 50 and keep 20. Usually I keep one or two and
print only the 32 for the exchange.
I have done monotypes for years and only since joining baren have I done
large editions (50) but I admit it is very satisfying to see those
prints stack up. It feels good to see a whole stack of your work. I also
see the advantage of having work stacked up in piles for future
opportunities. With those monotypes I was working awfully hard to do
200+ pieces a year. I could put the same energy into doing 20+ editions
every year and have a lot more work available down the road.
My first instructor said never print more than 10 of anything to keep
your prices up and interest in your work strong. So go figure.
I get bored pretty easy and want new and the old thinks seem of no value
to me. I am sure all artists feel this way, it is like bad children, we
don't want to see them again in a year. I hate it when I get work
returned from a gallery, I usually wonder how I could have sent it in
the first place as I have always changed and grown and improved my
methods since the "bad" piece was done!
So print as many as you think you can sell, give away or store, but not
so many that you will hate yourself in a year!
Barbara M

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From: "C. L. Stevens" <clswdcut@intersurf.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:00:01 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12097] Works on Paper Show at LSU 

Dear Bareners,  There is a Works on Paper Show being held at the LSU
Union Art Gallery next April 20-May 18, 2001 for US artists.  The
deadline for entries by slide is January 24, 2001.  There will be
$4000.00 in prizes.  The juror is David William Kiehl from the Whitney
Museum of American Art.  You may write LSU Union Art Gallery Attn: Works
on Paper 2001 Gallery Assistant Box 25123 Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA 70894-5123;  or call 225-388-5117, 10 am-6 pm CST  for
more information.  I am the gallery designer there so I will be hanging
it.  It is one of my freelancing jobs that I do as needed.  By the way,
I am in the process of  hanging a show called 20 x 20 x 20 Compact Show
for LA artists and Peter Walls  has two woodcuts  in it.  Peter, they
are absolutely wonderful. I have told all my helpers about this
wonderful group and about "meeting" you here.  I thought all of you
might like to participate.  Catherine

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From: "C. L. Stevens" <clswdcut@intersurf.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:26:19 -0600
Subject: [Baren 12098] Edition size 

For Julio,  This is how I started:  my first one I never editioned, I
still print it 14 years later.  The next 2, I set arbitrarily at 75 and
printed them all, giving the majority away.  These were all linocuts.
But my first woodcut was done to help Native Americans get money for
their education and because of that mercenary need, I set the edition at
200.  I found with that woodcut (which was on pine) that it actually
started to lose some of its sharpness at about 150.  When I switched to
yellow poplar I found that I kept the sharpness longer, but decided that
200 was a reasonable limit.  Sometimes with some of the more complex
inking ones, I set the limit lower.  Also, because of my own concerns
about these very issues that you have raised,  with some of my later
ones I worry about finishing the edition. But I don't worry about
changing my inking anymore.  I consider that a plus as I evolve.  I even
use it to help people understand the difference between a monoprint
(which mine are coming close to) and a regular edition.  Now, I have a
question.  I have been telling people that the phrase "limited edition"
came from the breakdown of the blocks in printing books.  Am I erroneous
in this?  There were limited edition books, were there not?  And weren't
the real reasons that lithography and metal etching and intaglio
invented  were to  increase the number of books?  It makes perfectly
good sense.  Catherine L. Stevens

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From: GWohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:51:04 -0500
Subject: [Baren 12099] Re: Baren Digest V13 #1214 

> For a closeup look at a very innovative artist with 40 years of experience visit
> barener Bill Ritchie Jr. new website
> at:

I tried, but the download for the images was incredibly long.  I have a
56k modem, and I'm not on cable or any of the other fast lines.  I
finally had to give up as several minutes had gone by and still it was
downloading.  Sure would like to have seen it!

Gayle




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From: Lawrence <vurt1@optushome.com.au>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:03:14 +1100
Subject: [Baren 12100] Re: Who's doing the counting ? 

HI

Editioning is supposed to be based on ethics which in turn relate to how 
many prints you feel you can shift, which again in turn relates to issues 
such as will the plate take that amount of printing (this is mostly only a 
problem for engravings, lithographs and etchings, however).

The bottom line is, can you be bothered editioning 500 prints by hand, 
taking into account time, paper costs, ink cost etc. The numbering and 
signing of the edition is only supposed to be done after all the prints are 
dry, you then sort out the edition number (normally but not always in tens, 
fifty's or hundreds, larger is not considered better for fine arts though 
to get a reasonable return you may go large, I always laugh at those 
ridiculous Franklin mint things when they say an edition of 20,000,000,000, 
who are they kidding). Prints from the end of an edition are often (but not 
always) of an inferior quality and prints right at the beginning are often 
not optimal either (depends on the process, etching, engraving, lino etc).

Normally a shrewd printmaker would do the edition number say 50, they would 
assign less than 10%- 20% to artists proofs, so that makes the edition 
number 55 - 60, you could then do as many 'hors commerce' prints (means not 
for sale) as you like (and they do show up for sale often, throw in a 
working proof or twenty and before you know it you have an edition of 50 - 
60 with 35 other prints to fling far and wide and no ones the wiser. You 
are then supposed to scour the block and run a print or two of the 
destroyed block (as proof ( which is about the only ethical thing I've 
listed here I think). Also I forgot that if it is editioned by a fine 
printer they normally either get a cut  of the edition or get to edition a 
specified amount for their own use (sale, folio etc) which means that more 
than a 100 prints are now flying around.

Personally (with the exception of scouring the block) adding or pumping the 
edition is to be frowned upon, do your edition based on the approximate 
number sold in the previous edition, or based upon a guess which ought to 
relate to time, finances and the amount of paper you have and also in your 
belief that it will be thought of in a kind way (ie people will buy it).

The bottom line is that people who say that the edition will be limited to 
XXXX are really not doing themselves or anyone any favours, that can be 
considered scamming. A fine printer will (mostly) always do the edition in 
one period of time (ie a day, a week etc of editioning a plate/block/screen 
etc). Numbering the edition is done in conjunction with the printer often 
over coffee after the plate has been struck off.

Salvador Dali prints are mostly worthless because he signed hugh amounts of 
blank sheet which leads to the joke Q. "how do you recognize a fake Dali 
print, A. It has a genuine signature".

Ethics are a personal thing... but there are guidelines...






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From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:05:25 EST
Subject: [Baren 12101] Re: Anyone in  S.F.? 

Hello Ruth,

Now we are 4!! Jean Eger, Catherine Stevens , you, and I.  They are both very 
very experienced.  And good. I have been doing woodcuts for 3 years- 3 hours 
almost every day.  I like it!!!
Just today I started a workshop in woodblock.  I will be missing one class 
when in SF, but that is OK. Will tell  you more later.

 You are disciplined to spend time on woodcuts with 2 young children.   Even 
15 minutes counts.

It seems that the 22 and/or the 25 are good dates for our meeting. What an 
adventure...

Will you bring some works so we  all can share and discuss?
 
We are looking forward to seeing the prints of  another Barener , Sarah 
Hauser,who is showing in Berkeley, Dana McCutcheon Gallery

I leave on Friday. I can be reached at my e-mail  address any time then on.  
What a system
 
Will send Website URL's tomorrow.

Carol    Irvington, NY
 




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From: Lawrence <vurt1@optushome.com.au>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:32:16 +1100
Subject: [Baren 12102] Re: Edition size 

I think that you will find that numbering editions is a relatively recent 
concept (since the Renaissance) and did relate to the breakdown of the 
block for the most part.

Now days there are all sorts of weird issues such as if I edition this wood 
engraving and print it on yellow paper say 20 copies and then edition it 
and put it on red paper say another 20 copies then have I done an edition 
of 40 or 2 editions of 20. Most people seem to say that there are 2 
editions of 20. Editions are now judged arbitrarily in this sense.

An interesting point you raise that the processes were changed due to the 
increase in the edition sizes and the resulting cheapening of the process 
used to create them. If this was still the case (and I believe that it once 
was) then if I do a print and then someone reproduces it on offset press at 
a high quality then it may actually be of a better quality (in a sense) 
than my original. The edition is cheaper to produce and uses a contemporary 
process (offset is contemporary as lithography was a hundred or so years 
ago and etching/engraving 500 years ago). Both are limited editions one 
just has a larger limit. However the hand printed print is considered more 
desirable by most people who are aware of the differences. Have to ask your 
self why, if artists have always used the most available method of 
reproduction then why do collectors prefer the old fashioned print methods, 
why not use a photocopier (questions of archival preservation aside).

I think that a lot of what we do is done as a sort of blind tradition. We 
no longer have the same limits that were inherent in the processes way back 
when. in the end the tactile and the aesthetic are all your left with. 
Editioning is not so relevant anymore other than as an historical record 
and a sales gimmick.

Its a hard thing to call and really there is a limit on the debate on these 
issues. The absent discourse of printmaking etc

Starting to think its a bit of an illusion this editioning thing but the 
actual editioning of a print can be so enjoyable so why stop.

Hope that this makes some sort of sense, I really am enjoying the thoughts 
that are being thrown around by this list.

Regards


Lawrence

>  I have been telling people that the phrase "limited edition"
>came from the breakdown of the blocks in printing books.  Am I erroneous
>in this?  There were limited edition books, were there not?  And weren't
>the real reasons that lithography and metal etching and intaglio
>invented  were to  increase the number of books?  It makes perfectly
>good sense.  Catherine L. Stevens


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End of Baren Digest V13 #1215
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