[Baren] the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Sunday, 30 July 2000 Volume 12 : Number1095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:52:30 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10702] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1094--dry pigments > Some of those pigments are indeed pretty nasty. It is proper practice touse > gloves, eye protection and a respirator when handling some of them. Egads, you people are scaring me. I thought these dry pigments were okay--here I am with chronic asthma and I'm grinding something that could really get into my lungs and do more damage!!! I wasn't even using my mask or gloves or anything. I was at the kitchen sink just grinding away like it was nothing. April, you mentioned gum arabic. Instead of paste? For instance, a dab of gum arabic on the board as if it were paste, or gum arabic inside the bowl of pigment you are using for a particular board? Or gum arabic plus paste? I really love using paste, and I don't know why, but it feels so ancient, I guess. Gum arabic sounds something like those additives to food like carageenan, etc. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:21:35 EDT Subject: [Baren 10703] Pigments and poison Hi all, I have no idea why anyone would work with dry pigment, which is quite toxic, when already-dispersed pigment is available and of very high quality! I think Graham has a source for this in his neck of the woods, Guerra in New York City makes concentrated pigments already dispersed, and Susan Rostow's nontoxic Aquacolor which works quite well for hanga as well as other types of printmaking are all much less dangerous! Gayle, I would forget about that messy poison grinding stuff, and also save yourself the time effort, your body will also be thankful. I know that you have respiratory trouble from time to time, so I think this will be helpful. best wishes all, Sarah ------------------------------ From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:25:15 EDT Subject: [Baren 10704] more on pigments In a message dated 00-07-29 09:05:19 EDT, Jack wrote: << can you think of some advantage that grinding pigments gives you, maybe some understanding of differences in pigments or something? >> I'll be interested to see what Dave has to say about this, but believe me the dispersed pigments that I have are very well blended in the dispersion, far better mixing than I'd ever be able to do on my own, and again, WHY unnecessarily expose yourself to the powdery stuff???? Don't we all want to be around to do those 1000 prints :) Sarah ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:24:41 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10705] Hand-Pulled Prints >Mike Lyon beat me to it--I have never observed the mechanical photo-litho >process, but apparently these reproductions are also "hand pulled" from the >presses. Maybe a robot hand, but so what. I have seen commercial >photo-litho printers advertise hand-pulled prints. Oh, well. Those who >wish to fight the good fight with all those windmills, have at it. I am >conserving my energy. When reference is made to hand-pulled prints from mechanical photo lithograph press it means that the press is a one colour .... maybe two and the paper stacked in the feed is picked up by the grippers and comes through the press and the operator/printer stops and starts things. Other wise a lot of hand work. The ink fountains and blanket pressure are adjusted by hand. I wonder if there are any being used today? There was one near Toronto 15 years ago but it is gone now. You can understand that running one colour at a time it takes a "master printer" to know and understand the adjustment of the first, second and so on colours, it takes one hell of a lot of know how and experience to get it right. Also seldom did they run just 4 colours. 6 was pretty well a minimum and the more the easier it was to adjust and get the colours close to the original. Often the numbers were in the dozen range. When you think about it is a little like what we do. If something needs adjusting just cut another plate or adjust the amount of ink. This works easier for the oily people, not so easy for us Hanga guys. At any rate, work that is run in the above manner is a fine art print. ... Did you ever think you would hear it from me !!!! I would like to clearify one thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stuff that is cranked off high speed computerized, digitized press or inkjet presses. Nothing at all as long as the promoters don't try to sell it a Blue Chip Art. Sell the decorative art stuff as posters and that would be the end of the debate. Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:49:38 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10706] Re: water dispersion >Make sense to me, but if someone is getting all new pigments to start out, >and they don't have your corner pigment shop to run to so they have to mail >order anyway, might as well start out with the wet stuff and save yourself >some trouble. Boy, am I with you on this one. By the way Gayle you used the premix at Boot Camp. >That is unless grinding your own offers some advantages in >color or texture or something that I don't know about. I have used the powder stuff and I never found any advantage The premix is ground pigment that is simply suspended in a waterbase medium. You still have to ad rice paste or some kind of binder. So much of what Dave and Noboru Sawai do is tradition...... Oh oh, I'm in trouble now or is that again. >Dave, can you think >of some advantage that grinding pigments gives you, maybe some understanding >of differences in pigments or something? To really understand the 'differences in pigments or something'..... work with transparent watercolours for a few years. There are numerous qualities that can affect the end result. It is a demanding and fascinating medium to create with..... or is that.... with which to create. Graham Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy. ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10709] Akua Kolor Sarah, I see you mentioned akua kolor for hanga, I know this stays wet a long time, but is not really rewetting when dry. Do you use damp paper with it? do you use rice paste? do you roll it on or brush it on? I know the base of this ink is honey, how does that affect the hanga final look? I have been wanting to try this, but if you are already using it, please tell us how you are doing it and what the results are. Thanks! Barbara M ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:33:44 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10710] Re: Where is the best place to publish a new site ? >Hi Friends > At last i am on the adge of publishing my new site which is basicly >art site .Which option i got which is the best with payment or It depends on your location in the world. I am confused about with or without payment. Are you talking about a webmaster charging or not charging to put you stuff on the net? If selling fine art on the net is your objective, my findings are it does not happen. Posters yes. Fine art in the way of originals, prints do not sell on the web. Graham ps Your computer has the wrong date. The e-mail I am responding to has a date of May 16th 2000 !!!! ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:38:20 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10711] breakthrough Well, friends, I have had a little breakthrough here in sunny summer Oregon. The class Wanda and I took from Yugi Hiratsuka was fun and I learned a few things. One, I think I was printing on paper that was way too damp. I have decided it just needs to be damp enough that it lays flat and doesn't buckle when damp. That is, it is uniformly barely damp. If you touch it, you really cannot tell it is damp. But if you put it close to your cheek it feels coolish. I am using rives light weight paper and having fairly good results, I am using rives heavyweight paper and having excellent results. So, this is a breakthrough for me. Each time I tried these papers in the past, the pigment bled. Obviously the paper was too wet. I Misted each sheet, not sprayed each sheet, and left them overnight in a paperpack with a damp blotter every 15 sheets and wrapped up in plastic. If you don't have a mister, spray water into the air and then swish the paper through the mist that is falling. I got the mister at a plant store, you pump it up and it sprays very finely. Secondly, I was trying to do a bakashi blend on a large block and the pigment just dried too fast. Summer and no humidity is the problem. Yugi said you need 70% humidity and winter to print well, something that is available a lot in Japan. We have 30% in Oregon. So, what I did was really soak the block underwater for 5 minutes and mixed a lot of water into the rice paste and hardly used any pigment, just the paste and water mixture. It worked well, so I am a happy camper! When I get this print done I will scan it and send it to Dave, it is my tree print for Print Australia, and you can all see the results of my labors. Lets hope the next 4 colors print as well as the first one! Barbara M ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:54:19 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10713] Re: pigment >Graham, >I tried to email to Mike to order more pigment and my email bounced. Is >this the correct address, fineliners@msn.com? do you think he has a new Ok Barbara. I left a message on their home phone. I will keep you posted. By the way John Root picked some up the other day and says they are great. It was an interesting posting about the use of Rives. Was it BFK or something else.? The dampness of paper is critical. I wonder if in using the Shin Torinoko where you have to soak it before use has lead you astray. (For two bootcamps I have never succeeded o<; ) At anyrate, I want to remind you that when you come to use the Hosho Paper, (I think you picked up some here) you put it between the two damp blotters and slightly dampen ever other sheet. I'm sure I showed the dry brush effect with that large Mazubake (Paper wetting brush) at Boot Camp. If that stuff gets too wet you can sure have problems. Cheers, Graham WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD? According to............ EINSTEIN Did the chicken really cross the road or did the road move beneath the chicken? ------------------------------ From: "eli griggs" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:38:48 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10714] idle hands Hi there: It's hot, I'm bored and, having finished my Exchange #6 prints at 3:30 this morning, I find myself at loose ends for something to do. Therefore, I have taken a decision to stir the pot of artistic discourse and see what floats to the top. The New York Times Art Section has a rather good article on, of all things, the swastika; can it and should it be rehabilitated into western cutural and artistic life? I am in my early forties and had only thought of it as a symbol of hate and racism and perhaps, obscure American Indian and Eastern mysticism; a spiral of energy. As someone who believes that one of the things that good art does best, is to provoke thoughtful debate; this seemed as good a way to spend a dog-day as any other. My question then, is this: other than a symbol of political hate, ( or political anything) after having read the article mentioned, would you consider using a swastika, of any sort, in a woodblock? Or is it much too difficult a subject? Have any of you done so already? David, have you ever run across swastikas in the natural course of your work in Japan and if you have, did you find yourself at odds about how to deal with it as a printer? Are there any members who come from cultures that see the swastika as a proper and positive sort of symbol and use it in non-political ways in their art? No gut reactions please! Read the article first; it's an eye-popper! http://www.nytimes.com/library/arts/072900tank-swastika.html Eli Griggs Charlotte N.C. USA ------------------------------ From: slinder@mediaone.net Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:27:42 -0500 Subject: [Baren 10715] Re: idle hands-Eichenberg Exhibit Hi, Eli! I just saw that the Fritz Eichenberg Exhibit is headed your way! It is a wonderful exhibit of great prints, but also about an interesting person. It includes his drawings, blocks, and tools. I hope that you'll make a point of getting to see it. Here are some sites on Eichenberg, his thoughts, and his work! He was a gifted and unique man, and the exhibit pointed out not only his talent and technicalabilities, but his intense pacifism. He saw the ugliness that is possible in humanity and used woodblocks and wit to fight against it. --perhaps this is the connection to your exploration of the swastika symbol and what it stood for. His craftsmanship was matched with intellect and emotion . This is the exhibit that stopped here in Chicago this winter, travelled to L.A., and will open in Greensborough, N.C.. It is an exhibit that is worth the trip! It is a teaching exhibit of a most remarkable man in a most remarkable timeof the world! 8/25-10/13 "WITNESS TO OUR CENTURY: AN ARTISTIC BIOGRAPHY OF FRITZ EICHENBERG" This exhibit chronicles the life and career of Fritz Eichenberg (1901-1990), Quaker artist, print maker, teacher, author and social activist, whose life bore witness to the political, military and social events of our age. Weekdays, 9am-5pm; Sun., 2-5pm. Guilford College Art Gallery. 336-316-2438. go to exhibitions. It's good to have things going on in your head while your hands are busy carving! Sharen ------------------------------ From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:18:13 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10716] Gampi for Kyogo? Jack, Dave, thanks for the pigment discussion. I've been very happy with the intense color of pigment dispersions. (I also use Akua Color monoprint ink, which is already mixed with binder.) One of the great things about hanga woodcut is that you can use pigment. I used to do a lot of etching and oil base woodcut, but the color you can get with waterbase is so much better, it would be hard to go back! I am teaching a class at Dieu Donne Papermill this weekend, and they gave me a sheet of Gampi to try printing Kyogos with to register the second block....very thin crispy paper. At $12 a sheet I won't do it all the time, but look forward to trying. Gampi is used for hanshita, the first drawing, right? Think it will work for kyogo--printing the key block for transfer to the color blocks? I think kyogo is usually printed on a thin, lightly sized, kozo paper? Thank you experts for clarifying this point! April Vollmer 174 Eldridge St, NYC 10002, 212-677-5691 http://www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:23:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10717] Re: idle hands - ----- Original Message ----- Eli,....Sorry I am pounding nails today,...so I past on reading the NYTimes. I have, in my limited printmaking, used this symbol,.... The only real observation I can make is that you only give something or someone power,...in itself it doesn't have any power! You're right, old Adolph stole the symbol from Native Americans....the schmuck!!! Did you ever see the 1946 film I believe, called "The Stranger" with one of my favorites, Orson Wells, playing a Nazi, hiding out in New England after WWII.....on one occasion he was doodling on a pad as he talks to someone on the telephone,...what was the doodle? A swastika!!! And that is where this symbol should be relegated to,...a doodle! Not the NYTimes or an endless discussion!!! Back to work,......it may look like a Kubelwagon but it's really going to be a work shed. Philip ------------------------------ From: "eli griggs" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:19:34 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10718] Re: idle hands-Eichenberg Exhibit Hi Sharen: Thanks for the reply and the links. I will try to get up to Greensboro for the exhibit, it sounds like a real must for a novice printmaker like myself. I have a early edition of The Jungle Book put up some where and so as soon as I might, I'll dig it up and see if Eichenberg did the prints. It's always nice to find another facet to a story that you loved as a child (and as a parent)! I do have to wonder though, if it is simply too difficult a step for most of us to step away from the horrors of Hilter and his ilk, and view the swastika as anything other than the enbodyment of evil? How for example, would an artist include it as an element of a design, beyond a motif, and not be automaticaly pigeon-holed as political? Beyond the examples sited in the Times article, how was the swastika represented in everyday life and was there a common thread of understanding in the works of earlier, non-political artist using its' symbolisim? I think most of us will reconize the symbolism of Fido, a single lit candle and hierarchical proportions in art, both recent and ancient. The swastika, thousands of years old, exist for most of us only from Facist Germany onward. Eli Griggs Charlotte N.C. USA ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V12 #1095 *****************************