[Baren] the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Saturday, 29 July 2000 Volume 12 : Number1094 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:13:27 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10687] Silly! Dave, you've created a monster again! Too many posts to read them all! Silly, indeed! But I did find some good information, thank you Julio and Drew for the information about Chicago Printmakers Collaborative http://www.chicagoprintmakers.com/main.htm When I was at Frogman's Print and Paper in South Dakota I had the pleasure of meeting Jeff Sippel, who is teaching the waterless lithography in Chicago. He is a fine artist, a master printer, and a really good guy, too. I'm sure his class will be great, (even though it's oilbase!) And georgia and Mike Lyons mentioned the teaching of Hiroki Morinoue, nice to hear about another hanga artist. Please keep us posted. best, April Vollmer 174 Eldridge St, NYC 10002, 212-677-5691 http://www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:58:23 -0700 Subject: [Baren 10689] print conception... Legreenart@cs.com wrote: >"An artist makes a print >when the piece of artwork is conceived as a print." Up until this last month I would have agree totally with that comment. However I was presented with a challenge to demonstrate at the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria for a couple of months this summer. What to do??? I did a watercolour 12 years ago of brown paper bags. (I've mentioned this before) It has contiunued to capture my pleasure even though I sold the image to a friend. (It was one of those pieces you should never sell that I'm sure some of you have experienced .... I now will have 30 prints (if I'm lucky) of a bag study. Ah be it that I modified the print down to 5 bags instead of the original 7. Actually I still agree with your statement Le..... or is it Le Green.... because back then I thought momentarily about having a reproduction done....(I had a violent attack of 'kick-my-ass' and came to my senses). Which brings me to another point. I was advised by Noboru Sawai that a print of our sport should never have an original. The print should be original onto itself and doing a watercolour, or a painting, or whatever of the image and using it as an original to the print is considered a no no. The prints then become less original and more of a facsimile. The folks that were here for Boot Camp saw a print that was 145 impressions from 26 plates. The artisan Masato Arikushi who lives Vancouver was/is a student of Noboru. I have seen the original and it is amazingly close with the exception that the original by Mary Pratt, was an acylic and thus has much more vibrant colours..... (high key if you will). >concieved in another medium, such as oil, and then an image of that work is >reproduced, it is a reproduction. So the stuff that Dave does is not a reproduction but ...... what would be the best way to discribe it? >on methods, so what we want are "artist produced hand-pulled prints." This >isn't a matter of snobbery, but just reflects our personal interest niche. This opens another thought process but rather than muddy the waters here I will save it for another day. Regards Graham If you ain't makin' waves, you ain't kickin' hard enough! ------------------------------ From: Vollmer/Yamaguchi Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:46:56 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10690] water dispersion Gayle, you can get already ground pigment, a water dispersion, from Art Guerra 212-529-0628. I just mix this with some gum arabic as binder. Not only does it save time and energy, but most of it is quite poisonous, and it gets allover the place. Jack, wouldn't you recommend avoiding those powders? Kat, nice to see your post! Looking at my collection of prints I really like your variety of cutting marks, and the way the overlapping colors blend. April Vollmer 174 Eldridge St, NYC 10002, 212-677-5691 http://www.aprilvollmer.com ------------------------------ From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:14:48 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10691] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1093--Mixing Dry Pigments While waiting for my new touchtone phone to come in so I can be on the internet with my old rotary dial-in, AND receive calls, too, and even make business calls where you have to press 1, 2, 3 etc. for different choices, I thought I'd do some more dry pigment mixing according to Dave's way--50 percent alcohol with 50 percent water. I did very well on the dark red. Bottled it, taped it closed, and put it on the shelf. Well, then came vermilion. I ground and ground and ground while it was dry and little nubs, not even clumps, were still there. So I went ahead and added about a tablespoon of water/alcohol and I've been grinding for 15 minutes and still see graininess. Is this normal? Are some pigments grainier than others? Does the graininess ever come out or do I just keep grinding. I added a wee bit more alcohol/water and still nada. * * * Bareners, you should see my artroom. I can work in it now. With all the added shelves and drawers, plus throwing away at least 15 bags of useless stuff, I can walk in that room and not trip over anything, and my tall chair is waiting at the tilted table top drawing board (which had been lying flat; a holding place for jars and jars of things, but now those things are consolidated into just a few jars of brushes, colored pencils, regular pencils, pens, and markers which sit on shelves higher than the work table and not right on it). Oh, all's right with the world. I want to thank Bea Gold, Barbara Mason and Graham Scholes--also Jean Eger for sharing some time with me and Jim (and suggesting the gallery we visited where we were shown the large and well organized work area). Seeing all those studios this summer shamed me into getting my act together, or inspired me--maybe both. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:22:57 -0400 Subject: [Baren 10692] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1093 I didn't mean to slight Dave when mentioning studios. There's no more efficient one than Dave's own traveling box of a thing that opens up to little shelves and boards, that reassemble easily to make a perfect hanga studio. His was the creme de la creme. Gayle ------------------------------ From: Artsmadis@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:59:31 EDT Subject: [Baren 10693] Re: Baren Digest V12 #1093--Mixing Dry Pigments In a message dated 7/28/00 1:19:59 PM Central Daylight Time, blueman@pantek.com writes: << grinding for 15 minutes and still see graininess. Is this normal? Are some pigments grainier than others? Does the graininess ever come out or do I just keep grinding. >> Some pigments are grainier than others. Some are very very hard, some almost like ground glass but harder. Some do not want to get wet. I believe grinding in a mortar and pestle is much more difficult and harder to get evenly ground results than grinding on a flat slab with a muller. When grinding you are supposed to only do a very small quantity at once. I have heard that some pigments are nearly impossible to get properly ground by hand. Darrell ............... Artsmadis http://members.aol.com/artsmadis/index.htm.htm 60 pages so far ................ ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 06:50:24 +0900 Subject: [Baren 10694] Re: Mixing dry pigments Gayle wrote: > Well, then came vermilion. I ground and ground and ground while it was= > dry and little nubs, not even clumps, were still there. I wouldn't worry so much about this Gayle. The pigments do indeed all have different characteristics, and the red you started with is one of the finest and smoothest. Don't try and get them all completely fine and smooth. Once they are in the jar with the alcohol and water, they become very soft over time, and when you scoop a bit of the paste out to use it, you will find that what small lumps are left soon dissolve in your mixing bowl. *** > I didn't mean to slight Dave when mentioning studios. There's no more > efficient one than Dave's own traveling box of a thing that opens up to > little shelves and boards, that reassemble easily to make a perfect > hanga studio. No 'slight' perceived at _this_ end ... And as for the studios you guys are always talking about, I just go green when I hear you. I too would love to work in such a nice wide environment ... it's just not possible where I live. *** Mike Lyon wrote, about reproductions and stuff: > Dave Bull should be the current expert ... Well thanks for the thought Mike, but no way ... for a couple of reasons. I have very little knowledge about how to tell old Edo prints from say Meiji-era copies of them, and would only offer an opinion at such times as I had specific knowledge of a particular case. Those prints fool the world's best experts, and I'm not about to put my neck on the line ... But the second reason is perhaps more germane - I simply don't care about any of this 'original' vs 'reproduction' stuff. All I'm interested in is that piece of paper in front of me - how well is it designed, carved and printed. I do understand that some people are interested in the _value_ of a print, and as a result they start to think about the 'originality' of the piece, but this is of no interest to me. I get a great deal of pleasure (and have learned a _lot_) from that stack of early 20th century reproductions that I bought last year. = It might also be worth mentioning that here in Japanese there is a specific word available to describe such prints, that doesn't seem to exist in English. We can use the terms 'fukusei' ('foo-koo-say') or 'fukoku-ban' to describe them. It means basically 'prints that are copies of a previous original, but which are also made with the same carving and printing technique'. The print I just finished up for Exchange #6 is an 'original' ... the print I am now working on for my Surimono Album is a 'fukoku-ban'. *** April wrote: > Dave, you've created a monster again! Too many posts to read them all! Don't worry April ... things will settle down soon, as they always do! *** I haven't been sending out NewsFeeds recently - there simply haven't been enough people sending in news ... But a few URLs of interest have come across my desk: ** A site that may be of interest to many of you is at: http://www.worldprintmakers.com/ The note from Miguel Booth of 'World Printmakers' said that "we've created a plan where artists can participate without it costing them any money." ** A note was received from French engraver Georges Thi=E9baud. "Artists,engravers, printworkshops, magazines and art centers ... you can suscribe your web site on: = http://www.aromatik.com/links/post2me.html = ** There is a new on-line print shop from Italy at: http://www.morra-japaneseart.com *** Jean Eger wrote a while back: > Himi and Fumi are back! Hooray! We get to see a lot of great = > new stuff on the web site. Well, actually ... I'm sorry to say they have already returned to Canada. They think that participating in a 4-week skate camp in August will be more fun than being with Dad :-( = It's going to be a long and quiet summer around here ... Dave ------------------------------ From: Studio Dalwood Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:02:45 +1000 Subject: [Baren 10696] What is a print? Hi everybody. My apologies for not contributing more to the discussions. I'm not on summer holidays though I am enjoying the first signs that spring is on its way here. All the wattle in my street is in bloom and there are wafts of the perfume of early spring flowers on the warming air. Through all the 'print v reproduction' argument the thing that kept going through my mind was this. If you make a painting or drawing there is only one work of art to be enjoyed whether it is in a private collection or whether it is in a museum on public view. If you make a print and edition it, however, many people can have the joy of ownership and appreciation of their work of art. That's partly what its about for me. The rest is the joy of the medium. It is so seductive and addictive. I often wonder if it is the books of my childhood that have developed my appreciation of the black and white image, and I also wonder if that is why so many of the printmakers I seem to meet fall into the 'mature' category. Our aesthetics were modelled in a pre-computer era when books, literature and the printed image were the means of communication. I drooled on cloth books as a baby and I'm still hooked. My family all read for pleasure. So often it seems that the rest of the world exists on battery operated everything and wouldn't know a book if it bit them. How many of you share my impatience in finally pulling that first print off a block that has been days in conception? If it feels good, do it, and to hell with the opinions of the unwashed masses. Josephine Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:10:01 -1000 Subject: [Baren 10697] Re: water dispersion Vollmer/Yamaguchi wrote: > Gayle, you can get already ground pigment, a water dispersion, from Art > Guerra 212-529-0628. I just mix this with some gum arabic as binder. Not > only does it save time and energy, but most of it is quite poisonous, and > it gets allover the place. > > Jack, wouldn't you recommend avoiding those powders? Some of those pigments are indeed pretty nasty. It is proper practice to use gloves, eye protection and a respirator when handling some of them. As a very general rule, most of the earth pigments aren't too bad, but still nothing that you would want in your lungs. I know... I too still handle this bad stuff without the proper protection, as it often seems like too much trouble. But I would agree with April, if you have an option to get it already ground and wet, I sure would recommend going that way. Some of this bad stuff works on your system pretty slowly, and once it starts doing bad things to your body, you can't really pinpoint the exact cause. Now that I poke along with chronic fatigue for these past several years, I have quit using many chemicals that used to be regular solvents, cleaners and thinners in my conservation work, and try to work more carefully with the solvents and pigments that I do still use. Jack Aiea, Hawaii ------------------------------ From: dcgoldleaf@uswest.net Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:41:26 -0600 Subject: [Baren 10698] new member or lurker I have enjoyed reading the baren dicussions over the last two weeks and finally am getting around to saying something and introducing myself. i live in Denver and own a gold leaf studio. We do carving, casting and about everything else on picture frames for artists, museums and collectors. My real love is printmaking. Mostly I've worked with intaglio. I bought a Vandercook proofing press from a customer and have been having lots of fun. I am most interetsed in the Hanga tecnique of printing and plan to read more. The original print discussion seems to be going in lots of different directions. I attended a portrait seminar in San Fran last year and the opening speaker talked about the differences between modern and traditional art and the friction, but concluded that it is still all art. The seminar over three days then developed into a subtle war between different factions of portrait painting and in a way detracted from the overall intent. There are different ways to say something, not just one. I admire the tone of discussion in the Baren group. A positive approach to seeing the different ways of of presenting an image. Thanks Leon ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:46:22 +0900 Subject: [Baren 10699] Re: water dispersion Jack wrote: > As a > very general rule, most of the earth pigments aren't too bad, but still > nothing that you would want in your lungs. Not to quarrel with Jack, because the advice he offers is of course common sense, but I'd like to add that this concern is one of the main advantages to using this paste/alcohol/water system. You grind the stuff _once_ (using whatever level of protection you deem necessary) and that's the end of it. From then until the jar runs out, you are using the pigment in a paste or liquid form, and unless you're going to start drinking it, you are in no danger from the particles. I fill up my jars around once a year, and when that job is done, I can forget about any danger for the rest of the year ... Dave ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:28:33 -1000 Subject: [Baren 10700] Re: water dispersion David Bull wrote: > advantages to using this paste/alcohol/water system. You grind the > stuff _once_ (using whatever level of protection you deem necessary) and > that's the end of it...I fill up my > jars around once a year, and when that job is done, I can forget about > any danger for the rest of the year ... Make sense to me, but if someone is getting all new pigments to start out, and they don't have your corner pigment shop to run to so they have to mail order anyway, might as well start out with the wet stuff and save yourself some trouble. That is unless grinding your own offers some advantages in color or texture or something that I don't know about. Dave, can you think of some advantage that grinding pigments gives you, maybe some understanding of differences in pigments or something? Jack Aiea, Hawaii ------------------------------ From: "John and Michelle Morrell" Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:27:39 -0800 Subject: [Baren 10701] Storing Blocks & Hand-Pulled Prints Mike Lyon beat me to it--I have never observed the mechanical photo-litho process, but apparently these reproductions are also "hand pulled" from the presses. Maybe a robot hand, but so what. I have seen commercial photo-litho printers advertise hand-pulled prints. Oh, well. Those who wish to fight the good fight with all those windmills, have at it. I am conserving my energy. Also, I agree with Graham's advice to store wood blocks on the edge, but he must be talking plankwood or plywood when he says to store them on the end grain edge. Wood engraving blocks should also be stored upright on edge, I'm told, to minimize warping. The end grain of course is the face side (they look like little butcher's blocks excepting Resingrave-type plastic/partical board blocks) and not an edge side. <><><><><><><><><> Michelle Morrell jmmorrell@gci.net <><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V12 #1094 *****************************