[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Wednesday, 19 April 2000 Volume 11 : Number 976 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Bull Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:19:05 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9326] Re: Hiroshige color Jim wrote about some Hiroshige prints he was looking at: > I may be booed and hissed or otherwise assailed for suggesting such > blasphemy, but here it goes... > > Good grief, man, this is _Hiroshige_! What could be the problem? Jim, I can't believe you made a post like this. Don't misunderstand - I'm not against your message ... I just can't believe you posted this just this evening - about six hours after I read _this_ passage in a book by Michener: *** "Although Hiroshige produced more prints than any other ukiyo-e artist (it has been claimed that the total number of his prints, counting all contemporary editions, just about equals the number issued by all other artists combined, in all various editions) few people have ever seen an authentic Hiroshige. What we see are pathetic late copies, and it is one of artŐs most tantalizing anomalies that the poorness of the average available Hiroshige is in a twisted way proof of how great an artist he was. "The contradiction can be explained as follows: he was primarily concerned with the relationships of light and natural phenomena and expressed this in prints so subtle that only pristine copies prepared under his direction convey even a slight idea of what he had in mind; late runs, when printer and publisher were in a hurry to make a few extra yen, became merely crude travel prints and bear almost no relationship to the artist's intentions. "I cannot stress too strongly the fact that the ten thousandth copy of a Tokaido scene is simply not a Hiroshige, even though struck off from his blocks and in something approximating his colors. I doubt if even the three hundredth copy ought to be called a Hiroshige. Let me report my own experience. I had seen perhaps seventy different complete sets of the Tokaido in many of the world's major museums and had acquired a low opinion of Hiroshige's major work. "Then I happened by chance to visit the Newark museum when they had on display about two dozen Tokaido prints from a set which John Cotton Dana spent years assembling in a determination to get at least one series in first-class condition. Then I discovered that I had never seen Tokaido prints before. I recall one dreary subject, a daimyo's train preparing to break camp at Seki, which in design, drawing and customary coloring has positively nothing to commend it. But in the Newark copy it was a majestic rendering of bright light inside the compound and mysterious pre-dawn darkness outside. It was so extraordinarily beautiful that one could only feel humble before it. It was the work of a man who could see and to whom all else was unimportant save an honest reporting of what he had seen. "Today I would not hazard an opinion on any Hiroshige print until I had seen at least three versions, one very early, for I assure the reader that from a casual glance, especially at a late printing, one can have not the remotest idea of what Hiroshige might have been striving for. ... To consider the late monstrosities as any way comparable to those of original and crystal purity is unfair. Hiroshige can probably be condemned for not having overseen his work more carefully, but I suspect he was much like Ernest Hemingway, who has repeatedly said he is not concerned with what Hollywood does to his stories. If he can get them right the first time, that's more than most men can accomplish. What happens after that is inconsequential." (Quoted from 'The Floating World', James Michener.) *** What do you think, Jim? Maybe you saw 'not-so-good' copies. Or then again, maybe what you saw was a 'real' Hiroshige, and you just see things differently ... ;-) Dave ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:32:02 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9327] 'Printmakers on the Web' I've been getting repeated requests to 'Please include me on the Printmakers on the Web' page in the Encyclopedia ... Thanks for your patience people, and I've finally got the application form ready. Head over to the main website: http://woodblock.com ... and look down near the bottom of the main page. You will see an item 'Printmakers on the Web' in the Exhibitions section. The application form is on the introduction page in that section. Those of you who have been asking me for inclusion, please visit that page and send in the relevant info. Note: while I was making this update this evening, I noticed that a number of the links on that page are out-of-date and broken because the images have been moved by their owners. The links are broken for: Arango, Chase, Cass, Kelly, King, Luedtke and Westergard. Use the form to send in replacement links please! Dave ------------------------------ From: Andrew Stevens Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:44:34 -0500 Subject: [Baren 9328] Support your support group Regarding Barbara's council stuff post, Considering the education I've received on this forum, I'd be glad to help with a small donation. Donations will be the most direct and least tainted way to raise a bit of cash. The awful alternative, if a steady income is needed to support the effort, is to sell ad space on the Baren web site. Drew ------------------------------ From: Andrew Stevens Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:44:55 -0500 Subject: [Baren 9329] Re: Hiroshige color James & all, You don't mention whether you were looking at an early or late impression of Hiroshige, but you mention that some of the colors were so dense that they obscured the keyblock. This suggests to me that it was a later printing. Even in very early printings, some impressions show subtleties of printing that suggest that special care was taken with them. In collector circles these are often referred to as "first states." (Although, with some of these, since only the inking has changed with no corresponding changes to the block, they are not first states in the usual sense of the word, but variant inkings.) Still, lots of the people who have commented on Japanese prints (particularly before 1950) referred to Hiroshige's time as degenerate. The most common evidence of this is the occasional use of western tricks of perspective, and the use of deeply saturated dyes which became available and very popular in Hiroshige's day. I recall reading in an auction catalog from the 20's that buyers that a few hours in bright sunlight would effectively dim too-intense colors. However, Hiroshige was also capable of using a palette much closer in tone, for instance in his surimono prints. Apparently, the difference in color pitch between most surimono, and the usual oban-type print was a result of difference in market; surimono were generally produced as commissions for a poet or poetry group, while most oban prints were made to slug it out with other prints in the "novelty mad" (according to Hubbard) open market. Drew ------------------------------ From: ArtfulCarol@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:05:19 EDT Subject: [Baren 9330] Re: Support your support group I will be glad to help with a donation. The past few months I have spent so much time with you wonderful people - -looking, learning, thinking, enjoying......Time out from cutting , printing, home work. Carol Lyons Irvington, NY USA ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:36:54 -0500 Subject: [Baren 9331] Skokie exhibit coverage at absolutearts.com Check out the Art News section on absolutearts.com for an indepth report about our Skokie exhibit. "absolutearts.com has an email subscriber list of over 14,000 arts enthusiasts and tens of thousands of daily visitors via the WWW". http://www.absolutearts.com Thanks...Julio ps. Again, I keep having my mug photo pop up on these things thru no fault of my own, hopefully you don't think I am trying to promote myself thru the exhibit. It's starting to get a little embarrassing. ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:57:15 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9332] woodcuts alive! Back from the world of the art festival, just a quick note to update Baren on some interesting observations: First a quote from Dave's Encyclopedia: "Colour block prints are not meant primarily for museums and the solander boxes of the dilettanti; they are meant for the homes of the people. Any revival that does not cater for them is a mere hot-house growth, likely to wither quickly. I believe that only by wedding the craft of the colour block print to the interests of the public can we hope for a revival that is a revival - a rekindling of life in an old and honourable craft." Indeed! The art of the woodcut lives well in the eyes of the public. The festival was small and with a great variety of offerings. There were a few painting artists, a few craftsmen, jewelry, knick-knackers, even some "manufactured" goods snuck in there (e.g. soaps and lawn chairs). All in all, artist, if you cannot accept the variety of the arts and craft show, please stay away! I got sick of hearing a couple of "artists" whine about how soaps and puppet dolls belonged in a swap meet. I think the strength of these festivals is that there is something for everyone. Let's get back to the quote. Art "meant for the homes of the people." So, know your audience and give them something that they might want to purchase on a whim, and add it to their very exclusive collection in their homes. Invariably artists would walk by my booth and tell me that I was giving my prints away, yet I saw a few purchasers pass by with framed posters in the $200 range. Golf art, no less. If you can't take that, stay out of these fun events! And it was fun. I talked about woodcuts, I demonstrated the cutting and printing, talked about the history and amazed some children, who seem particularly fascinated by this art form. Comments on my images are my favorites. People that stop by because of an image in my booth, before they ever know whether it is a print, a painting, or, yes, a poster. If you want success in these shows, give people images they like. That is what they are looking for ultimately. Most care less how many hours you spent at the cutting, or how many bokashis were required for that perfect blend. Give them images! Preferably give them something they have not seen before, not quite the way you do it. Those were my favorite customers. And customers I had, 6 pieces on Saturday and 11 on Sunday; mostly in the mid-range ($35-$125), mostly my favorites too. Engravings are always a hit, even though I am still a novice at them, people like to hold an endless little landscape in a small frame. They comment on the detail and the space that is created. The booth next door to me was selling puppet baby dolls, cut as a button. She sold one on Saturday and one on Sunday. But plenty of people thought they were cute! I did well by anyone's judgement (and judge they do, your partners in the festival; you should do this, you're giving this away, you should do that...), and I didn't dispense any advice to them. I'm in my rookie year, after all. And then the children, fascinated with the craft. They always ask if they could do that, they always ask mom and dad if they can learn this craft, I don't know what it is about them, but they love to watch. Many art lovers passed by also, some even bought. My favorite comment from them: "I thought nobody was doing this anymore." I always mention Baren, and the exchanges, and how many of us there are out here. Here is my favorite all weekend comment: "I really hate Southwest art, but I will take one of yours (Red Cliffs) to remind me of this place after I move." Thank you ma'am, I think. Two more in May, one in June. I love this life! Health to all, Maria ------------------------------ From: Aqua4tis@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:07:15 EDT Subject: [Baren 9333] Re: woodcuts alive! hi maria i printed out your comments about the festival lots of good insight there also about kids: i think they can be our best audience at times and our most honest critics anyway thanks i enjoyed ready this alot :-) georga ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Baren 9334] Skokie print sells Our first sale from the Skokie Exhibit has taken place. Congratulations to Carol Lyons (Irvington, New York)...her woodblock print, "Woodblock Variant - Bijou" ( 11 X 11") has been purchased by a local Skokie resident. Julio ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:27:08 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9335] Oh, what a week I've learned osme important things this wwek: - - Carving wood is more fun than carving lino. Much more you can do to get many different effects than available with lino. - - Printing on damp paper requires less ink than printing on dry paper. - - Some paper was never meant to be wet, it falls apart. and last but not least, never ever have two people leaning the same way in a canoe. I still smell like fish I think. But my angel daughter caught a 4 pound bass! Dan Dew Stinky, wet, but learning ------------------------------ From: Kris Alder Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:59:00 -0600 Subject: [none] Thank You April for clearing up the waxed vs. unwaxed masa question! My former professor and I both appear humbly before you with egg on our respective faces. He has apologized to me profusely for providing me with less than accurate information, and I must apologize to fellow bareners for placing that info. in this forum. Needless to say, I'll research my source of information more closely in the future. Have been using some hosho(?) paper recently in making reductive prints. I have had some problem with open blotches (mostly areas where the ink is not covering completely) especially on my final layer. I have tried to be extra careful to ink the block evenly. I have also tried to be sure that the ink is dry between printing the layers. I have tried hand-printing and press printing with the same problem. Any ideas on what could be causing this? Is it best to dampen this paper before printing? That's something I have not tried yet with this paper. Would appreciate your input. Thanks Kris ------------------------------ From: "George Sutton" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:45:12 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9337] Re: Responses to mail April Thanks for the advice. In fact, the unwaxed masa worked very well when I pulled "ink pad" prints of my key block. My concern was that the masa would not up to a full "water" hanga print job. Will check out New York Central this weekend. Found them on the web. Again, thank you. George ------------------------------ From: "Keri & Tom Marion" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:03:58 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9338] RE: Support your support group i agree that i wouldn't mind putting some money away in trade for this service, but i think it would be most easily organized if included with baren exchanges.. a flat fee, maybe in addition to postage? k. marion WA USA ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:22:40 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9339] Hiroshige color Jim, I suspect the Hiroshiges you were looking at were later knock offs. The especially gaudy colors sound reminiscent of the 1890's and early 1900's prints. Imagine this. Your prints become wildly popular and sought after. You can't make them fast enough. Out here in boonville, I pick up on your popularity and figure to cash in it. I hire a carver and printer, get one of your prints, have them copy it, (speed here is more essential than accuracy), and soon I have a bundle of _your_ prints on the market. They are bought up. A generation or two later, someone uncovers them in an attic, and because they have your name on them, and your work is still popular, someone decides they have found a treasure which they wish to cash in on. These works are advertised as your works and put up at auction and sold as such, even though you had nothing to do with them, and didn't even know of their existence. The folks that did them had no idea what you were trying to do artistically, and they didn't care. They were simply trying to represent your style enough to make a sale because your name was printed on it. Colors? Effects? Quality? Bah, get them on the shelf while the name is still hot. I suspect some such thing here. I too have seen Hiroshiges which on the other hand were supposed to be originals, but were so lifeless that they almost melted into the dim lit museum walls. How could someone with such a spectacular reputation produce something with such an _unspectacular_ effect? I suspect dyes that faded out, soiling from being handled, the natural aging of a piece of paper a century and a half old, ultraviolet damage, and later printings by publishing houses unconcerned with _exactly_ reproducing the image are the types of things that contribute to such a dissappointing effect. But then, every once in a while, you run across a print like James Michener described, a thing of awe inspiring beauty, and you know from that experience that here was an artist who produced great art, unfortunately those who have translated it again and again down thru the years, did not have the same vision. Gary ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:24:00 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9340] un utter failure oh i feel so stupid, can anyone out there help? trying to print on damp paper (hosho). First color went great, looked so neat. kept the paper damp, trying to print second color and ink either bleeds or won't take. using speedball tube ink for both first and second color. first color was mixture of white,black and blue, second color only black and blue. now i'm black and blue and totally frustrated. P.S. just in case, i did 10 prints on dry paper. those came out perfectly, like planned. dan dew once again,dazed and confused ------------------------------ From: WRober6895@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:26:57 EDT Subject: [Baren 9341] Re: Responses to mail You know, my sources tell me that Masa _is_ a sized paper (Daniel Smith and McClain's) and I have used it for proofing Hanga. Pluses for Masa - it is a large sheet, and quite inexpensive -- a minus (for me anyway) is the extreme whiteness of the paper, and the thinness of it. Only 70/90 grams per square meter. Although, now that I think of it - it could be perfect for that big black & white oily print rolling around in my head right now. I've never seen the waxed variety, though. How would it work for the "fish prints"? You know, the ones where you ink up the fish & use it as the block. Wanda ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:56:54 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9342] Re: Skokie print sells Wonderful! Congratulations, Carol! Wanda ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9343] Re: un utter failure Dan, I think the paper you are using just cannot absorb more ink. Try a different paper. Use Rives Lightweight and see if that works. Barbara " ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:30:06 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9344] paper Dan, Try the shin torinoko paper, it is inexpensive and works well. Barbara ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:45:06 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9345] Re: un utter failure Dan....I just checked what John Platt said, [an old woodcut artist from yesteryear in London]...he put a total of three sheets of printing paper between two sheets of "dampening" paper, you can use newsprint brushed with water very evenly and not soaked...I guess never actual wetting the printing paper itself,...and the printing paper should be dry enough that it is never limp when lifted,...all of this between two sheets of plate glass,.....I would say,...way to much water in your printing paper,......like just cool to the touch when you place it on your face,...[I read that somewhere too!!]....anyway,...get back at it and good luck! Philip ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:47:51 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9346] Re: un utter failure Dan....also John Platt sized his paper [and let it dry] first before "dampening" it,...he says Hosho needs sizing on only one side,...... Philip ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V11 #976 ****************************