[Baren} the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Monday, 5 June 2000 Volume 11 : Number1034 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Luedtke Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:11:48 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9922] Re: Lasers, computers, appropriation, etc. <> Graham I doubt, Graham, whether any "great artist" ever sat down and pondered, "jeez, should I break the rule and do it my way, or not?" I doubt also whether there was any concern to redefine the rules. They just did what came natural, how to express themselves with the most effective results. I think this is what Greg was talking about. Anyway, there's all this talk of "rules". What rules? What rules does a great artist break? Whose rules? I think these "rules" are just steps people have taken to achieve a particular effect, or style. Someone created something, someone else liked it, and figured out the steps necessary to get there. If it became popular, the path to it became a lane, then a road, then a highway. Somebody wrote a book on it. If it sold, a lot more people wrote books on it, " Popular Art And How! " and there just became a collective consciousness that if you want to do it this way, this is how you do it. Those steps, in those books, became the "rules" you had to follow if you wanted to go there too. But if you want to go elsewhere, somewhere no one's been before, there are no rules, (and no books). Figure out your own way. How many adventuresome artists are willing to do that? How many artists are willing to give up the security of an established market for something that hasn't been done before? And how many artists are creative enough to invent something totally new? Not very many. And just doing this does not make you great, it's the following you inspire that does that. A great crowd was moving. Those in the back followed because they figured those in the front knew where they were going. Those in the front figured they were going in the right direction because everyone else was following. This crowd sets the "rules" you are following. Trust 'em? Gary ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:30:21 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9923] Husai Jack, I have been looking at prints from this artist (Husai) on ebay and they seem to be selling from $300 to $600. I really like the images. I emailed one person who said they were all restrikes after the death of the artists as the older ones are thousands of dollars. I know little about this, but I know you know a lot. Is this true and how can one know which is old and does it matter since the artist didn't print them anyway? Lots of questions so early in the morning, sorry. I think you would like my latest print, oil, not hanga, but it has your sunset and beach in it. No palm trees, after all, I live in Oregon. thanks, Barbara M ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:48:14 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9924] Re: Lasers, computers, appropriation, etc. >I doubt, Graham, whether any "great artist" ever sat down and pondered, >"jeez, should I break the rule and do it my way, or not?" I am glad you used the word doubt...... >Anyway, there's all this talk of "rules". What rules? Yes there are rules and you have to know them before you can change (break) them to achieve your objective and visual statement. >A great crowd was moving. Those in the back followed because they >figured those in the front knew where they were going. Those in the >front figured they were going in the right direction because everyone else >was following. This crowd sets the "rules" you are following. Trust >'em? How did sheep get into this debate.? (<: Graham PS Laughing stock: animals with a sense of humor. ------------------------------ From: Jean Eger Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:41:03 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9925] free speech Roxanne, It's late in the semester and we are all tired. We must try not to have a chilling effect on freedom of speech. Luckily, most people ignore us when we start saying don't talk. Little kids, if they hear "don't talk" often enough, become unable to talk and have actual learning and speech disabilities. Jean http://users.lanminds.com/~jeaneger ------------------------------ From: barbara patera Date: Sun, 04 Jun 100 11:48:02 Pacific Daylight Time Subject: [Baren 9926] rules Graham wrote that there are rules (in art?) that we need to know before we can successfully break them. Graham, are you speaking of rules, or mastery of the accepted use of tools? I agree that knowledge and expertise are an immense help when using any medium but to put any limits on the creative process because of a "rule" seems to be pretty stifling. I know this can be a touchy subject as I have seen two very gentle people almost come to blows over this very subject. But,I can not conceive of any "rule" in the art world that wasn't forged by the breaking of an earlier rule. Barbara P. P. S. greatly enjoyed the "thermodynamics of hell".....does that make me a laughing stock? ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 11:31:37 -1000 Subject: [Baren 9927] Re: Husai B Mason wrote: > Jack, > I have been looking at prints from this artist (Husai) on ebay and they > seem to be selling from $300 to $600. I really like the images. I I'm not sure I know a lot, but thanks. I'll try to answer your questions, and perhaps Dave can correct all my errors. First, some of Hasui's (I assume that's who you mean) prints do range up to $2000, but I don't think that "thousands" is accurate, and many of his images can be had for far less. It depends on the condition of the print, age of the print and especially the image itself, with some being more popular than others. Although rough dating can be established buy the signature used (see http://www.hanga.com/landscape/hasui/seals.html ), more accurate information can be had from the publishers seal, usually found in the margin of the print. Almost all of Hasui's prints were published by Watanabe, and his seals for consecutive dates can be seen at http://www.hanga.com/seals/watanabe.html . If you find that the margins have been trimmed, the print has lost most of it's value to regular collectors, but can still be a good study print. However, you should only pay a fraction of the normal value. You can read more about condition of prints at http://www.hanga.com/condition.html . All these links are contained in the excellent Hanga Gallery website ( http://www.hanga.com/index.html ) all of which should be of use to anyone interested in Shin Hanga. As an aside, e-Bay is not always the best source for Shin Hanga prints. It is often difficult to establish condition and age from the photos, and some sellers seem to have little understanding of what they are selling. Also, while on occasion an item slips by at a low price, you must remember that you are generally competing with a very large number of quite knowledgeable collectors, some of whom are very competitive and seem to have very deep pockets. I would suggest that you also look at galleries that specialize in Japanese prints with a web search using "hasui". Also go to one or two local galleries to talk to the staff, and see some prints in person. This will give you a better feel for condition and values than scans on the internet can. A couple last thoughts. I believe that Hasui's prints are -still- being printed, but if you are mainly interested in his works for their wonderful compositions (I like Hasui too), these contemporary prints are sometimes a good value and obviously in good condition. Also, if you are very patient, Shin Hanga prints can still turn up at Estate sales. I found a group of about 15 Hasui and Yoshida prints for $7.50 apiece, all from 1945-50. Hope this helps. Jack Aiea, Hawaii ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:42:43 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9928] Re: Husai Jack,...you may be right about the sellers on e-Bay,...then again you never know who you are dealing with. Locally here in the NW WWW.CarolynStaleyPrints.com seems to have the information needed on Japanese woodcuts,...currently they have a Japanese stencil show,...worth taking a look see,....and I have talked to them before,..very nice and friendly. Philip ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:21:18 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9929] Re: rules Barbara P. wrote..... . > Graham, are you speaking of rules, or mastery of the accepted use >of tools? I agree that knowledge and I explain to students: This is the rule about composition or colour or perspective........blah blah blah ... Now that you know the rule go and break it and make your artist creation work. Be daring take a risk. Mastery of tools .... what every they may be ..... have to be achieved. This includes pigements, brushes, pens, knives, chisels, hammers, welding torch, Ax and yes even computers or what ever. -- (what ever whatever is ?) Graham PS All generalizations are false. ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:13:32 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9930] Prints Jack, Thanks so much for the information. I was considering eventually getting a few prints that I could donate to the museum after I studied them a while, but didn't want to end up with something they wouldn't want! My husband saw me looking at them on e-bay and had a kiniption fit. It was not a pretty site! So may just look for a while, until I am more knowledgable. Philip, I did get a print from Carolyn Staley and I get the Seattle gallery flyer. It was a Glen Alps print that Gordon Gilkey talked me out of after about a year. He has lots of Glen's work but didn't have the one I had. Naturally. It had petroglyphs in it! She does have a nice gallery and is very nice personally. Maybe we can stop and look at prints on our way to boot camp. Ha! We are all getting excited! Barbara M ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V11 #1034 *****************************