[Baren} the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Friday, 2 June 2000 Volume 11 : Number1030 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Philip Smith" Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9876] Re: a handful of stuff > During these last days.....there has been a great deal of discussion on"how" > prints are made or how they should or should not be made.....but not much Julio,...then you are saying that skill and craftsmanship are not relevant,...only the image!! Go to the Met in NY sometime,...there are thousands of pictures with the exact same image,...alas only one Rembrandt was Rembrandt,....there's an old WWll song: It ain't watcha do it's the way howcha do it!.....Skill and craftsmanship will ALWAYS take place over image. When I was in London a few years ago at the British Watercolour show [I saw it three times one week],...there was a letter displayed from John Cotman to his brother, I think,...It went something like, " I can't believe people, all they want to see is a little girl with a puppy",...and John C. was unsurpassed in skill and craftsmanship in painting watercolours. It's the flavour, the essence of your subject that counts and that flavour is achieved with your abilities, your skills and craftsmanship, not with "whatever" tools. If you want your work to be lifeless, mechanical, without that individual signature, that human touch,...by all means throw away you cutting tools and get a laser, hook it up to your computer and THEN you will be that what's his name in a sea of what's his name's not that famous Julio R. that they speak of in years to come,..."WOW, did that guy have style, technique, ability,..god he was a real craftsman", they'll say!!!! Be good kids, Philip ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:03:42 -0500 Subject: [Baren 9877] more Handy stuff! Philip writes: "Julio...then you are saying that skill and craftsmanship are not relevant,...only the image!!" Philip, I don't read anywhere in my post where I say that skill and craftmanship are not relevant. Quite the contrary, how else are you to bring your ideas to paper but thru the use of learned skills and excellence in craftmanship ? Philip writes: "It's the flavour, the essence of your subject that counts and that flavour is achieved with your abilities, your skills and craftsmanship, not with "whatever" tools." Totally agree...except I would change the last part to read "....craftmanship, "regardless of the tools used.". Are you saying that someone is not capable of using power tools with skill and craftmanship ? Given enough time, dedication and practice any tool can become a source of craftmanship (even my two left hands!). Wether we are talking about a knife or a Dremmel....neither is much use in the hands of an unskilled person. Philip writes: "If you want your work to be lifeless, mechanical, without that individual signature, that human touch,...by all means throw away you cutting tools and get a laser.." I think in the context we are discussing....a laser IS a cutting tool. There are already many storage rooms in galleries and museums filled with centuries worth of lifeless art, mechanical works lacking the human touch. Their failure was not in the tools used, but rather on the artist's inability to provoke a positive response with either his/her vision or his/her skills. Let's put on the brakes...reverse the flow, I would say to you.... why do you use a knife to carve ?.....a lifeless piece of cold steel........why I can use my fingernails to scratch the wood.....I can use my teeth to grind marks...I can beat the wood with this here rock (Hi Michael Schneider!!...where are you ?)..beat that for a handmade signature! ......and while you are it.......throw away all those brushes...dead hair from dead animals.....do like I do...just dip your fingers in the paint.....and happilly press away....with your bare feet that is! Philip writes: "...that famous Julio R. that they speak of in years to come,..."WOW, did that guy have style, technique, ability,..god he was a real craftsman", they'll say!!!!" Hey....thanks....but you and I are not going to sell any prints or receive any acclaim because of the tools we choose to use.....only because of the vision, skill and craftmanship with which we use them to create the final output. The proof is in the pudding! Somewhere a long long time ago.....somebody put together and used the very first crude baren. Not quite sure what was the tool of choice at the time for creating impressions on paper...perhaps a bone, perhaps a rock...but perhaps similar conversations took place among all involved..... Gotta go, just broke the tip off my new japanese To.....gotta go read those handy updates on hand sharpening on a water stone..... Julio ------------------------------ From: barbara patera Date: Thu, 01 Jun 100 14:40:52 Pacific Daylight Time Subject: [Baren 9878] re:laser cut blocks and craftsmanship Have been listening to you all discussing the merits of hand cut blocks prints over laser cut blocks or conversely the acceptability of said laser cut block prints. Everyone of you has some good points and have come to the conclusion that this is a no win debate. As for my two cents worth... I am definitely not a purist....really am into drawing on / with the computer...consider what I print out to be "art". Would feel right about hanging one of my ink jet prints as an original, signed and all.... as long as it was the only one produced(file destroyed).However, when it comes to what I consider to be "prints", I like mine to have had the the artist's hand upon it. I like the things that just happen. The differences between the drawing and what the wood says to do. I like the subtle differences between each hand pulled print. These are just my personal feelings and, as with each of us, all I have to go on. All of this may be moot....every day I see more and more Gliclee and Iris prints being numbered and sold as somehow unique. It's an unfortunate truth but most people really don't know the difference between a work that has taken hours,days,months to produce and a 1/5000 reproduction of some ones watercolor....whats more, I see these prints selling for the almost the same price as the original. Sometimes, when I'm feeling low, I think that I should take some of my cat prints, real schmaltzy ones, print up a couple of thousand, sign and number them, and hit the trail... BarbaraP ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:41:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9879] Contibution to"editioning" I have been following this thread with great interest. >Dave wrote: >All the modern artists use edition numbers to try to make their > >work 'exclusive'. It has been established that this statement is extreme. The key word here is 'artist' and as an artist, we creates an image and this, without exception, is the most important aspect of what we do. We could debate the word Artist from now until the fat lady sings. The small edition of prints allows me to create more images. It is really that simple. The carving and printing, as a craft and skill, is necessary, but nothing can replace the creation process. To do open editions would mean much time spent printing, which, for me, is most boring, when compared to the mental stimulation of the creation process. I don't personal find limiting and numbering prints has as much to do with exclusivity, sales or the bottom line but I am governed by the fact that I want to create and develop new images. I did the lighthouse series in an edition of 75... too many. When I do any prints now the figure is around the 30 mark and lower. ie. 15 on the Concert Suite. Doing the same image again and again is not my cup of tea. I want to create and persue the unknown and hopefully 'the never done' subject matter. So the small editions gets me into new material that I need to do to satisfy my inner passion. "Art melds the eye's image and the mind's interpretation". It is interpretation that makes my image different from others. It sets artists apart and is the ingredient that creates originality. It is this originality of image that is the challenge. We all start out copying as a learning process and if we develop our skills and techniques some people move on and strive for a higher level of creation. Liken it to a musician who plays beautifully but never moves on to compose..... I have noticed over the past year or so the signing off phrase..... Cut - Print This is only the skill/craft part of the equation. The important part of the equation is missing. Shouldn't it be ....... CREATE - Cut - Print. >But when you sell prints with edition numbers, thus encouraging your >clients to think of them as an 'exclusive' product (and thus one that >will increase in value) This has of course occured and probably always will. However when it was initiated it was done as an informative jesture letting people know the number of hand made prints. What spoiled this was when the hustlers got into the act and tried to ...successfully I might add ....create an advantage and sell their prints. Then came the secondary market ploy and all this was exploited by the reproduction scam business. They picked up on what the print artists were doing and USED it. Unfortuanately it got out of hand ... however the situation has been corrected and even reversed today. In our region it most difficult to sell prints. People do not trust them. There seems to be a mistrust of anything that does not have a track record in the hand made print offering. I mean by track record, images and styles that have been popular and have a built-in recognition. Dave is experiencing success with the reproduction of the old tried and true recognized images of Japan. > >The modern print scene here works exactly the same as it does everywhere >else. I don't think so. I have a first hand examples of the recognition factor..... An exhibition of 3 artist.... One deceased and well known in history..... prices $1500 to $20.000 sold 13 pieces. 2nd artist. Price range $500 to $1000 Not well know, but the work was a dead ringer for a famous deceased Vancouver Island artist in terms of design and lino technique ..... sold 30 pieces. The 3rd artist, similar prices as artist 2nd, reasonably well know and the work was not like anybodys and original in concept and some show risk of design. Sold 1 piece. This leads me to believe that the unknown is not easily saleable. I talked to a gallery owner who took a survey of 5 galleries to learn what was is causing the poor sale of handmade prints here on the coast. People simply do not trust prints that are not previously well established or recongnized in recent history was their finding. The other factor is the public is a affraid of prints in lieu of the scam-happening with reproductions. Interestingly enough posters are acceptable. Hummmmmm. There is an interesting occurrence in the arts in Canada. There is a very strong movement against 'cultural appropriation'. Artist here cannot take imagery that is recognized as aboriginal and adapt or use the image for profit or gain. For example doing paintings of totem poles is a no no..... I have talked this over with Dave and this is not a situation that is of concern in Japan. Lucky you Dave. I wonder, if in time this may change, particularly if MANY non Japanese start using the imagery for gain. Probably not because only mad dogs and Englishmen do Hanga...(<: Dave has cottoned on to a niche and is benefiting very nicely. > > Surely the answer to the dilemma between starvation and >> making repro posters is to make repro posters. > >Sorry Greg, I see this exactly the other way around. When faced between >starvation and taking up a way of living that one feels is morally repugnant, >one must simply choose the third option - go and be a window cleaner or >something. It does not work that way in my case Dave ..... why are there so many starving artists. I am not an person that does art because I "WANT TO". I don't have a choice. I have a inexplicable drive that causes me to "HAVE TO" do art. Oh sure I could do commercial art..... I have been there but that is a "thou shalt". I am driven to the "I shalts". These, I shalts, do not include commission work or the "window cleaner or something" referred to above. >Why did I do this insane thing? Because I want as _many people as >possible_ to be able to enjoy these prints! Dave learned early on the following proverb...... Sell to the Rich and eat with the Poor. Sell to the Poor and eat with the Rich. I have known about this philosophy for 20 years and yet here I am not doing it. Stupid I suppose but that is my nature. However I am young and will win in the long run. I don't know how I know this, I think it is called the rasa theory, believing in the gut feelings, and what is more important, so does Marnie my wife. We have come to believe that it will be, in time, a contribution to Canadian Art. History is on our side and if we do work that is innovative, original and has risk, then someday it will be a contribution to the arts. I say ..... Dedicate your yourself, create it, and they will come. What I can't say is WHEN. Graham PS If everything's coming your way, maybe you're in the wrong lane. ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 08:30:36 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9880] Junin and software. Julio said "Yes Jo. True to form with every exchange so far, there is usually more mail about the exchanges the weeks prior to their completion....than the weeks after their arrival. WHY is that ?" Thanks Ju. Wish I knew. I vaguely remember Dave? saying that there had been a rush of mails after the last one. I must have got it wrong. Maria said "The other activity is to show everyone, my husband first (poor thang), then other printmakers if I can find them, students from my workshops, anyone I can grab on the street..." Yes. Husbands. I got a pat on head and a '"very nice dear". *sigh* ****************** Lots of interesting off-topic chat about software. When Graham said get a mac, I meant to say that I would then need to replace the thousands of $ of PC software I have collected over the years with mac versions. I find the discussion of price interesting too. There's a lot of freeware out there that is good to use and there is a lot of pirated stuff too. This is a possible alternative to mortgaging your soul for the latest versions. Its a matter of conscience whether you use pirated stuff (otherwise known as warez). For some software you only get a license for one computer so if you install it on your second computer or laptop as well you've pirated it anyway. Funny rules and I'm sure they'd sell more and lose less to pirates if they made the prices more affordable. A free 3D graphics program is available. Its called strata3d and it has a mac version too I think http://shop.3d.com/strata/strata3d/ A free professional standard web-builder/html editor package is here http://www.evrsoft.com/ I'm still learning how to use it. To me that's a better option than $600 which I can't spare for Dreamweaver. Josephine ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:22:24 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9881] Re: more Handy stuff! Julio,....when I think of high tech "tools",...I'm thinking of the things I see in my trade publications,...where you can void any kind of personal contact with the art itself,...do it on a computer, let the computer cut it on a computer driven laser,...where does the art come in,...I don't really know,....a computer driven design,...is that really being creative? Years ago when I lived in Santa Rosa, CA there was/is a company that did laser cut decorative wooden boxes of trees, animals, etc.,....and don't think the thought didn't cross my mind then to produce a woodcut via laser,...but being somewhat, and I mean somewhat of a traditionalist, I wanted to know what the "old guys" did to get those wonderful effects. Somewhere in time and space we somehow loose the art in art. To me the paintings of today aren't as good as the paintings of yesterday. I love the craft in anything,..those special formulas, secret recipes, tools of yesteryear that are lost forever,... Go with high tech always and you have lost the flavour.........and you bet those young college kids looking at your work years from now WILL wonder, "how did he do that",.....??? Let's hope the retort from the rear is not, "big deal, it was done on a computer". Be well, Philip ------------------------------ From: michael schneider Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:26:38 +0200 Subject: [Baren 9882] Re: Contibution to"editioning" Graham Scholes wrote: > The key word here is 'artist' and as an artist, we creates an image > and this, without exception, is the most important aspect of what we > do. We could debate the word Artist from now until the fat lady sings. I do my prints in an edition of three, following the idea Graham just stated. There is also another idea that is important to me. The printing process and my decisions during that process determine to a great deal the outcome of the final picture. With every block ready there is a infinite number of different pictures that can be taken from. The edition I do is just a selection I make that symbolizes the possibilities. And for the exclusivity, the most of the time I do not even sell all three, so why should I make more, just to have hundreds of prints I do not know where to store? And If one block turns out be very popular and sells, it is a good motivation to continue to ... CREATE - Cut - Print. David's way to sell his prints is a very good one for his work, but not adaptable for me. I would be happy if it would work for me, because it would save me a lot of time and effort to find people who are willing to pay their money for my work. People who are willing to share their living room with one of my prints are not that easy to find. > > I have a first hand examples of the recognition factor..... > An exhibition of 3 artist.... One deceased and well known in > history..... prices $1500 to $20.000 sold 13 pieces. 2nd artist. > Price range $500 to $1000 Not well know, but the work was a dead > ringer for a famous deceased Vancouver Island artist in terms of > design and lino technique ..... sold 30 pieces. > The 3rd artist, similar prices as artist 2nd, reasonably well know > and the work was not like anybodys and original in concept and some > show risk of design. Sold 1 piece. > > This leads me to believe that the unknown is not easily saleable. I did a show some years ago in the National Gallery in Istanbul. The media response was great. Good critics in some nationwide tabloids, a interview with a national TV station that run on network all over europe (unfortunately in turkish, even it was given in english) Sales? 0 Some month later I did a show in Innsbruck ( That's a town where my work is known) The media response was at best mediocre, good critics in some local papers, one short notice on local radio. Sales? 20 even some large prints got sold and I could eat for one year and even pay a trip to malta. (At my first exhibition in Innsbruck I sold 1 piece) There is a proverb in Austria: " Was der Bauer nicht kennt, i§t er nicht." ( What the farmer does not know, he won't eat.) Next opening is at June 8th in Vienna, lets hope the people can remember my work. > > I say ..... Dedicate your yourself, create it, and they will come. > What I can't say is WHEN. I will remember this one michael Vienna, Austria. ------------------------------ From: "john ryrie" Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:20:11 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9883] Re: Baren Digest V11 >Does anyone know of who prints nice american flag prints? Cpontemporary? > About 16x20. Woodcuts? or silk screen. Anything that you would want to Jasper Johns Paintings, screen prints, Lithographs and bronze relief's 1960s USA. John Melbourne Australia ------------------------------ From: "Horacio" Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:30:51 -0300 Subject: [Baren 9884] Re: Bad news for Horacio in Kampala Greg Robison wrote: > I'm sorry to break the bad news :-) , Horacio, but your amateur >status has been seriously compromised here in Kampala: I sold >your "ju nin, to iro" print on Friday. What a good bad news! Just in my 59th anniversary. Thank you Greg Hor‡cio Rio / Brazil. ------------------------------ From: Pedrobot@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:49:27 EDT Subject: [Baren 9885] Re: more Handy stuff! << and you bet those young college kids looking at your work years from now WILL wonder, "how did he do that",.....??? >> As a young college kid of the present, I would like to say that I already look at a lot of the stuff y'all do and ask that question. - --Pete ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:01:31 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9886] Re:laser cut blocks and craftsmanship BarbaraP w > All of this may be moot....every day I see more and more Gliclee >and Iris prints being numbered and sold as somehow unique. It's an >unfortunate truth but most people really don't know the difference Truly sad. We must not sit back and be complacent. Educate your public anyway you can. about the digitized fluff stuff. http://members.home.net/gscholes/Giclee.html > Sometimes, when I'm feeling low, I think that I should take some >of my cat prints, real schmaltzy ones, print up a couple of >thousand, sign and number them, and hit the trail... What and stoop lower..... Educate them. Graham ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:51:21 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9887] Re: Contibution to"editioning" Graham wrote: > The small edition of prints allows me to create more images. ... To do > open editions would mean much time spent printing, which, for me, is > most boring, when compared to the mental stimulation of the creation > process. This I guess Graham, is pretty much the 'end' of the discussion between you and me on this - the point where we just have to 'agree to disagree'. You like designing. I like carving and printing. We've both chosen to do what we like best! Two happy men! *** > Sell to the Rich and eat with the Poor. > Sell to the Poor and eat with the Rich. Very clever! I'd never heard this one before. Although I doubt that most of my collectors would like to be considered 'Poor', the meaning is still clear - keep the prices reasonable, and you will have no trouble selling things. *** > There is an interesting occurrence in the arts in Canada. There is a > very strong movement against 'cultural appropriation'. Wow, here we go an _another_ very deep and intricate topic! > I have talked this over with Dave and this is > not a situation that is of concern in Japan. Lucky you Dave. >From the North American 'PC' type of viewpoint, I am stealing from a cultural tradition in which I have no inherent rights (by birth), and using my appropriations for my own benefit. I of course, reject that argument vigorously. I reject totally the concept of 'birthright'. We are all in this thing (life) together, and nothing on this planet is 'owned' by one group to the exclusion of others. If I felt that using Indian totems was something I wanted to do in my work, I would do so. My choice happens to be Japanese cultural 'totems', and those I use freely ... (Of course I recognize such private concepts as copyright, etc. etc. - I am speaking here of general cultural matters ...) This whole question of appropriation is completely not a problem for me here ... quite the reverse. 'The Japanese' (if I can speak in a gross generalization) are more than happy to see me doing what I do. The fact that it is an outsider who is doing this work does not make them angry about the intrusion or appropriation, but _guilty_ - they have the feeling that they themselves _should_ be doing it. A second point (and one that I would think should be applicable to your Indian/Eskimo example), is the fact that having a foreigner come in here and dig so intensively into this tradition, is a matter of _pride_ for them. Implicit in what I do is the feeling that there is something _there_ in the Japanese tradition that is worthy of intensive study. The Japanese are very good at going out into the world, seeing something interesting, and then bringing it back here and making use of it. When they see somebody else doing the same thing in reverse, they have no problem with that. 'appropriation' ... not in my dictionary ... Dave ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V11 #1030 *****************************