[Baren} the mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking Baren Digest Tuesday, 30 May 2000 Volume 11 : Number1025 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEAFRUTH@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:49:56 EDT Subject: [Baren 9806] Re: Baren Digest V11 #1023 Just a little information about editioning. Leonard Baskin does not edition his small woodcuts and engravings. The reason being that he feels they should be easily available to anyone who would like them. I'm sure however the very large wonderful woodcuts are limited. I think the artist has to find his own way with whatever makes him or her comfortable. As for myself I made a great deal of money in the seventies and eighties with editions as large as 150 to 200. I had an agent who had salespeople to cover the country. I personally am not comfortable with selling my own prints and since moving to California I have not sold any. My problem is I cannot stop making them. I've cut my editions down to 50 and I don't print more than 10 except for the exchanges. My own little two cents....Ruth ------------------------------ From: Shireen Holman Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:55:40 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9807] Re: Morals and editioning At 08:27 AM 5/29/00 +0900, Dave wrote: > The custom of using edition numbers on prints is not > something that is 'natural' in a medium of mass > reproduction. It was created in the not-too-far distant > past by people who, when faced with the advent of new > mechanical means of reproducing images (printing presses > and photography), tried to find a method that would give > their products a cachet of exclusivity, and that would > distinguish their prints from ordinary 'printed matter'. Dave, I think that one of your assumptions seems to be that an artist is drawn to printmaking (at least in part) because it is a medium of mass reproduction. For me, I'm drawn to printmaking because of the beauty of prints - a form of art that's very different from any other, that really does something for me. I love to carve the blocks; I love to proof them; and I love to see the final print when I've got it the way I want it. But I get quite bored with "production" printing. I don't mind printing 20-25 copies, maybe 30, but I don't have the patience for a hundred. So that's the reason I limit my editions - I want to get on with another image! Shireen *********************************************** Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist email: shireenh@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~shireenh/ *********************************************** ------------------------------ From: BHearn2001@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:12:59 EDT Subject: [Baren 9808] Re: Baren Digest V11 #1024 I am from the "dark ages" and am proud of it! In 1966 I was making art and teaching music. Barbara Hearn ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:58:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9809] edtions Hi all, I have been trying to keep quiet, but my true nature finally over came me and am putting my foot it. We are of course patiently awaiting the or from Graham that he has promised us. I think numbering your work is fine, everyone does it so why not? I am not doing it to make money, just to go with the flow. Numbering does allow museums and collectors another level of information and they love more information. At the Portland Art Museum Gilkey Center we have a set of photographs from the estate of Myra Wiggens, a secessionist photographer and contemporary of Stiglitz. She wrote wonderful notes on the back of her photos, we know where the work was exhibited, what honors each piece won, sometimes her own personal thoughts on a piece. This is truly invaluable to a collector. Dave's information he sends with his prints will make his work famous and collected many years after he is no longer producing it and museums will know his quirk of not numbering them and not care, because they have so much other information. They will also know he did approximately 200 and that will be enough, they will not need to know which one it is in the pile. Numbering is not for artificial value as far as I am concerned. If I added up the cost and the income, I would be in a very negative situation, so I guess that I too am an "amateur printmaker" although that is not the way I planned it. I wanted to make enough money to pay for my "Habit". I did get a sizable check from a gallery last week, always a welcome surprise. I immediately bought a print at the Indian market we had in town over this holiday weekend. We have to keep that art money flowing. I agree with Shireen, that making more than 10 of anything is pretty boring. I don't mind it for the exchanges, but don't want to do it on a weekly basis. Most of my work was monotypes before I joined the baren, so I never numbered them but I did give them inventory numbers in some misguided attempt to keep track of my work, what a joke that was. If you truly rush around keeping total track it is a business and it takes some of the joy out of it for me. I already have several businesses and I don't want my art work to be the third one. so I am pretty lax about where all my work is. I take the attitude that if I loose one, I will make more. I also donate a few to charity auctions and get a kick out of knowing someone might get their very first piece of art in this round about way and it may start them on the path to buying more. Maybe Horacio has the right idea, never worry about selling it, just make it and give it away or stack it up for your own enjoyment. But do put a little information with your work, you never know, at some future date some museum of collector will be ever so grateful! Best to all, Barbara M I am going to add the M as there are so many of us Barbara's now on the list! Must be a good sign, or that we are all the same age and it was a popular name at the time. ------------------------------ From: barbara patera Date: Mon, 29 May 100 11:15:10 Pacific Daylight Time Subject: [Baren 9810] re editioning Guess I go with Julio.... I just hope that my prints don't end up in a garage sale being bought for the frame and glass....." Gee, this is just the right size for Aunt Jane's photo." Actually, I think multiples ( numbered, un-numbered,digital ) are the only way most people are able to add " FINE ART" ( as opposed to "CRAFTS" ) to their lives. As long as the art is marketed honestly does it matter if it is sold with/without an edition number? As to my personal credo....like the "Blues Brothers" I'm on a" mission from God"....try to keep the prices on my work reasonable so that anyone can afford it and add, I hope, a little extra enjoyment to their lives. Pretty pompous huh???? Now lets see "We have half a pack of cigarettes, a full tank of gas, and it's only a hundred miles to Chicago". Barbara P. ------------------------------ From: James G Mundie Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:55:16 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9811] limited editions Nice juicy reading, gang. If I may add to Greg's excellent points, one of the reasons that I work in limited editions is for quality control. The printing matrix degrades over time and I know for certain that if I were to run 3000 copies off of one of my etching plates or wood blocks that the first and last prints would bear only a passing resemblance to each other. Lines disappear, textures melt... This is where the digital prints have the edge, I suppose -- the ability to exactly reproduce the same image ad infinitum (which only makes the idea of limiting such a thing even more absurd). My woodblocks are pine, a fairly soft wood as woods go. Perhaps I could get one or two hundred clean copies from the blocks if I were really careful, but I know that the limits of the block, my skills and interest won't allow for such great numbers -- twenty or thirty (fifty at maximum for a large block) are as far as I care to go. Towards the end of the run, the block is already a different creature than it was before. If I were working as Dave does -- reproducing the designs of others -- I could recarve the block and keep at it; but this is my own work from inception to completion and I have no desire to keep churning out the exact same image again and again. By the time I'm finished with one block, I'm ready to move on to something else. Also, the style of my mark-making completely precludes the possibility of exactly replicating the previous block. For Dave's type of work, the person who "buys in" to the series later is probably getting a better deal -- the "early Bull" when Dave was still learning his craft are crude in comparison to a "late Bull". But Dave is seeking to perpetuate a traditional art and traditional images. He is a printer above all. My intentions for my work are different. I suppose I am creating primarily to appease my own personal demons. I am frankly not interested in having a "Mundie" on every wall in every home... those sorts of lofty democratic ideals do not appeal to me. I'm pleased when others find something that speaks to them in my work, and even more pleased when they wish to acquire one; but I'm not about screw myself out of fair market price just in the hopes of spreading the joy of woodcuts. They will buy or they will not; and, frankly, those that do reach for their wallets do so at a bargain. Have the prices for my prints gone up? They certainly have, but reasonably so just as the cost of producing them has risen and my ability to command a better price for myself. Most people tell me I'm still asking too little for my prints. To those that balk, I say, "They ain't gettin' any cheaper." I commend Dave for finding a system that works for him, but this is not a "one size fits all" business. What works for one isn't necessarily going to work for the other. Mise le meas, James Mundie Philadelphia USA ------------------------------ From: "Bill H. Ritchie, Jr" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:09:05 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9812] Re: comments from Brazil ... charset="iso-8859-1" Horacio wrote: > I think I am the older (amateur) printmaker on BAREN forum. Maybe not in > age but certainly in the printing activity. REPLY FROM THE DARK AGES Who goes there? In the dark ages, three old hermits were sitting and contemplating in front of a cave they shared when a dog ran by. Several months later, the silence was broken when one commented, "Pretty white dog." Then silence resumed. Months passed. Then another said, "Not white. Black. Pretty, yes." Weeks passed and nothing was said. The third old hermit stood up, stretched and said, "Argue argue--you guys ever quit? I can't stand it," and he went off to find a new cave. (Hi, Dave. I printed and sold my first prints in 1963. It wasn't the dark ages at all! I knew a LOT more than I know now! ;-) Printing since 1966 ... that's 34 years. You've certainly got me beat! Anybody else here on [Baren] from the dark ages? :-) ------------------------------ From: Greg Robison Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:15:49 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9813] Bad news for Horacio in Kampala Kampala, 29 May 2000 Horacio wrote: > I never sold any print, except two or three acquisition prizes I got on > official exhibitions. I'm sorry to break the bad news :-) , Horacio, but your amateur status has been seriously compromised here in Kampala: I sold your "ju nin, to iro" print on Friday. Not an "acquisition prize" or anything official like that, just a purchase by an art lover off the street. The kind of sale that warms a curator's heart! Congratulations! I "artificially inflated" the price, too. But I have to tell you, your print (and your self-portrait, too, displayed right beside the exhibition print) got plenty of comments before the sale -- mostly about how "frightening" they both were. That makes the sale so much sweeter! I had not intended to provide commentary in dribs and drabs on the Baren Exchange 5 show here in Kampala, since I am writing a piece for Baren-Suji to appear in June. If I lay it all out in advance, what am I going to write for the article? But there have been so many delightful anecdotes, so many little stories, that I suppose there's really no point in hoarding them all. Time passes, and if I don't find a way to weave them into the official narrative, maybe they'll be lost, and that would be a pity (maybe: you judge). * I was at a party with some printmakers and I mentioned -- you know, sort of to prime the conversation -- that I was struck by one of the comments in the artists' biographies displayed at the show about how her teacher once said that 'unless you have a work in progress...' -- I was immediately interrupted by a Ugandan who finished my sentence: "yeah, I know, "..if you don't have a work in progress, you're not really an artist.'" she said, "I was struck by that, too." Another one chimed in, "That was Bea Gold. I went to her website." The Ugandan artists have picked over this show very carefully! * Sarah Hauser -- who wasn't even in the main show, but had her Exchange 4 self-portrait in an alcove of the gallery dedicated to introducing selected Baren members not otherwise represented in the show -- was mentioned in the weekend section of the paper last Friday for her "whimsical but surprisingly endearing self-portrait as a greyhound in a red sweater." James Mundie was also in that alcove, and was the only Baren member more frightening -- according to a public judging from self-portraits -- than Horacio. * A number of prints -- of Baren members as well as of locals participants -- have attracted a lot of interest and attention for viewing but not (at least not yet) for buying. This, to me, is evidence that a show of this kind may have "take away" value for the public which is not synonymous with sales. The biographical data and commentary supplied by the participants added tremendously to this aspect of the show. Many people have told me that they have returned repeatedly to the gallery (and I can confirm this both from the guest book and seeing them there), in part because they can "get to know" the artists by the texts (and the self-portraits, in many cases) that accompany the main works. - --> What do *you* want to know about an exhibition of this kind? Is there anything in particular that you would like me to cover in my Baren-Suji piece? Gregory Robison ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:53:48 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9814] Dark Ages + Yeah Bill I am one of those people from outta the past,....I sold a guy a piece of art at a design studio in 1959, Oakland, CA....my first real sale was in 1951,..my dad got me this little billboard to do,..but the first thing I sold to a publisher was in 1961,...he bought it right out of my first portfolio,..just before my daughter was born..........that was in San Francisco,...stage coaches were coming in on a weekly bases then. Philip PS Selling a woodcut would be a treat. To date/ 0 sales. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel L. Dew" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:37:32 -0400 Subject: [Baren 9815] Another dumb question I know, every question of mine can be catagorized this way, but.... why do we sign, date and well, you know,..... in pencil? Not pen, or marker, or crayon, but good old #2. Why? dan dew ------------------------------ From: "Maria Arango" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:55:32 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9816] desert reality and woodcuts Well, it happened yesterday for the first time this year, although unfortunately and predictably, not the last. A young couple was stranded on a desert road _less_ than three quarters of a mile from the nearest inhabited building which was a convenience store/gas station, just on the edge of town. From the scant traces left on the desert floor and swept away by the winds by mid-afternoon, the evidence points to a vehicle overheating, two slightly inhebriated twenty-somethings heading for safety in 114 degree heat...into the desert, instead of out. A few wide circles later heading into a very inhospitable world, she drops of dehydration and exhaustion. Leaving her tucked away in the wispy half shade of a cat-claw bush--her last crude bed--he desperately begins running, falls in a ravine and then falls again, prey to the heat. Both succumbed to dehydration within 6 hours. Why tell this story and what does this have to do with woodcuts? The desert holds a morbid special attraction for me, always brutal in its simplicity and sole truths: carry water, know the desert ways, or die. No excuses, no arguments, no philosophies, no differences, no prejudice, no class discrimination, no opinions, no "other hands," no lies, no regrets, no other possible truth. So simple. That is why I like the desert and that is also why I got into the pure refreshing world of woodcut printmaking. There is a block and there are knives, ink and paper. Cut and print--it really is so simple. Health to all, Maria ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:09:57 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9817] Re: editions and stuff ... Bill Ritchie wrote: > Hi, Dave. I printed and sold my first prints in 1963. It wasn't the dark > ages at all! I knew a LOT more than I know now! ;-) Yes, I understand what you mean. I too, am (slowly) coming around to this way of thinking! > "Argue argue--you guys ever quit? I can't stand it," and he went > off to find a new cave. I don't think we have been 'arguing' Bill, just having a discussion about things that are of interest to us. After all, that's what the [Baren] cave is for! *** Greg asked: > Is there anything in particular that you would like me > to cover in my Baren-Suji piece? Is it redundant to ask that there be plenty of photos ??? *** Jim Mundie wrote: > For Dave's type of work, the person who "buys in" to the series later is > probably getting a better deal -- the "early Bull" when Dave was still Even the 'late Bull' is still learning his craft Jim! The point about 'buying in later and getting a better deal' is very true though, but doesn't it apply to every one of us? I hope so! Dave ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:10:33 -0800 Subject: [Baren 9818] Re: Baren Digest V11 #1024 >I am from the "dark ages" and am proud of it! Oh my...... that must put me in the cave man era 1949 I started in to formal training at art school. Some say my reluctance to accept digital fluff stuff puts me further back than that. Hummmm Graham ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:16:35 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9819] Books and a print dealers website Hi In all the excited chatter I think you missed my question? "He also mentions the Yoshiwara-makura, is this reproduced on the web anywhere? I'm also interested in locating the 'pillow book' that Peter Greenaway based his film on. Has anyone seen this film or can tell us about the book?" ************ I just found the link to this site. It has prints on it to look at. http://www.wolman-prints.com/ ************ Josephine ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baren 9820] even darker ages... Hello, Barenworld! Here's a bomb from Greece: Is 'cutting' a block art or craft? Does the possibility of recarving the same block the same way add to its value or not? Does it matter if you carve better or worse? Do you pay any attention to the subject? If I can afford to buy better tools, does that make me a better printmaker? Does it matter if one does not carve his own blocks?or print them? Is it woodblocmaking or woodblockprinting? Is it all about what you call the thing you do?Because as far as I'm concerned if you print your work it's printmaking. What kind of, that's another story! Anyway, here's the blast: The 'Sacred tree' (a new version, the other one's gone to the museum of 'Holy garbage') will be created on paper (ink&pen), but it will be cut on a laser cutter (much like a B&W printer but with a laser beam instead of the usual head). NOW WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT IN PRINTMAKING? The print WILL BE hand-pulled on Shiohara paper... Have a nice evening, Dimitris ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:47:51 -0700 Subject: [Baren 9821] darker ages Dimitris, You are making us think too hard! I think it is relief printing using wood. You cannot call it traditional woodblock when you are doing the cutting with a computer. I assume your lazer cutter is computer controlled. Cutting the block is art if an artist does it, craft if a machine does it. Better tools make some people better carvers, but some do pretty well with a razor blade (Jim Mundie) so the tool certainly helps but is not everything. I just call myself a printmaker and let others worry about what to call the thing I do. I am printing a monotype-woodblock combination today, using a blended roll for the background on a plexiglas plate and a carved woodblock printed over the top. I am pretty happy with the results. Call it whatever you like! Barbara M ------------------------------ From: "David Stones" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:34:56 +0900 Subject: [Baren 9822] Re: Limited editions Dear All, We'd better get used to the idea that all will never think the same on editioning... yet nobody has mentioned the one person that might like to know a print's production number - in the future, when it's on a buyer's wall or whenever/wherever a print is sold - the printer him/herself(!) As my prints are sold - and as I frame/mat them all - I need the number to keep track and what better place to have the information than right along with my signature. It's also a pleasant surprise to find that the next one to frame is No. 39, 62, 140 or whatever... it also reminds me easily of the number left, etc., etc. I've the names (only) of all my buyers, sometimes of the print number they now have. This is only a personal record but it's MY way. This printer also knows exactly which print HE'S looking at when he sees one of his prints again - on a wall somewhere, sometime.... Of course, this isn't of interest to every printer and my production numbers etc. are also filed away plus in the corner of the sheet (out of matted sight) but I do now sign, title and number prints as they're done and before putting them into the storeroom. Strange as it my be, the printer also NEEDS information as well as a buyer, gallery, etc. The numbers are there (in my case) NOT for enhancing a print's value, NOT for making a print exclusive, NOT to prove integrity but... well... as a number in the 200 that I've planned to create... and for information only. Maybe some re-thinking on the basics, not on heavy (but interesting) philosophy, would also help? Ishita (Dave S) ------------------------------ From: severn Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:09:43 +1000 Subject: [Baren 9823] Editions and states I'd like to join in on the theme of editions Michelle said "It was my understanding that if an edition really went well and you wanted to do it again, you could reprint it as "edition #2" and write that in the same vicinity as where you write the print#/edition size #." Yes, you can, but you must vary the edition slightly from the first edition. Usually this means a colour change and or paper change or addition of hand applied colour or chine colle etc. Or it can mean further cutting or combining it with other plates. A good reason not to deface or destroy your old plates. If you do make a second print run with say a different colour then you would call it 'print-name state II". See (States, below.) To make it exactly the same is undermining the reason that you place an edition number in the first place, which is to inform the purchaser how many in total that are the same as his exist. Its effectively lying. If you consider that price is a function of uniqueness you can see that identifying volume is a necessary function of the determination of price(value). To make open editions of prints is courageous because it confounds the determination of edition value. Is it one of a 10, 100, 100? Who knows. She also said "Likewise, if you wanted to limit yourself to one edition of a print and you wanted to give some away without taking from that edition, you could write "proof for so-and-so" where you would normally pencil in the print#/edition size #. " No. You take proofs for various reasons during the production of a print. To make 'extras" and call them proofs is again 'lying'. The accepted convention is that the number of proofs should be no more than 10% of the edition size. There are various other types of non-edition prints too. The bon-a-tirer (Sp?) which the print given to the printmaker from the artist and which is the sample from upon which the edition is modelled, (in terms of paper, inks, methods etc.) is an example. You should research this, most printmaking text contain a glossary. She said "In any event, I have been doing this as I usually limit my editions to 30 or so because 1) I tire of printing them, and 2) I have no great optimism in getting rid of them!" One method of leaving yourself the option to print more if the demand arises later is the batch method. You set your edition high, say 100 or so, if you usually edition <30. You print the first part of the edition, keeping samples, proofs and careful notes. Then if these eventually sell out you pull out the plates, print the second batch. and continue the numbering. You need to keep a meticulous print register if you use this method, but that's something you should be doing anyway, right? And she said "Re-carving the same image only slightly different to make yet another edition seems more tedium than I ever want to get into! " Agreed. But as you can see above there's no need to thwart convention and by consequence undermine the value of your work. Now all this is nomencalture. The point is you make prints and you sell them. How you go about it is up to you as has been recently thrashed out. But if you choose to make numbered editions you should do it honestly and follow the conventions. *********** About States. You cause a new state every time you change a plate after it has been printed. It is fairly unusual to edition the first printing of a plate without any fine tuning whatsoever. They are numbered state one, two etc to the final state which is editioned. These would be numbered "print-name state II A/P" if a proof. Sometimes the plate is editioned at various states. HEre the state number is included in the edition name. Phew! That's my word count too. Josephine Sydney, Australia ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V11 #1025 *****************************