Delivery-Agent: @(#)$Id: local.c,v 1.54 1998/10/30 06:30:53 akira1 Exp $ on jetstar Received: by j.xx.or.jp (ATSON-1) ; 1 Feb 2000 08:58:39 +0900 Return-Path: Received: from lancer.xx.or.jp (lancer.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.3]) by trantula.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with ESMTP id IAA17876 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:58:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from ml.xx.or.jp (ml.xx.or.jp [202.224.39.111]) by lancer.xx.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757154887 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:58:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) with SMTP id IAA38038; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:55:59 +0900 Received: by ml.xx.or.jp; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:55:59 +0900 Received: (from ml@localhost) by ml.xx.or.jp (8.8.8/3.7W) id IAA25220 for baren-digest-outgoing; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:55:59 +0900 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:55:59 +0900 Message-Id: <200001312355.IAA25220@ml.xx.or.jp> From: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Subject: Baren Digest V10 #884 Reply-To: baren@ml.xx.or.jp Errors-To: owner-baren@ml.xx.or.jp Precedence: bulk [Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Sender: owner-baren-digest@ml.xx.or.jp X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 Baren Digest Monday, 31 January 2000 Volume 10 : Number 884 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:52:37 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8074] Re: Baren Digest V10 #883 Michael, you made some good points about the change in Baren with a council, et al. It does feel a little like some of us are trailing behind on the winds of progress. I miss Baren's small closeness, but I also know that the intimacy of the wee village doesn't keep. There are a lot of energetic people in Baren and of course it is exciting to be here with all these ideas floating above us like party balloons to grab at. It's really fun, isn't it? There are so many projects that it's hard to say no to anything if you like doing woodcuts, and I sure do!!!! The trees, the letters, the current Baren Exchange which is causing some of us many hours of contemplation, how to do this thing without it seeming schmaltzy or too illustrative. Every idea I come up with seems it could be an illustration for a magazine article. I don't want it to look that way. In this rambling, what I'm trying to say is Baren is exciting but also scarey in that way when changes are coming faster than you can hang on to them. Gayle ------------------------------ From: "Michelle D. Hudson" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:17:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 8075] Baren reorganization, etc. (From Ray H in Vermont) I for one welcome the council and hope it will indeed diminish the time required for Dave to maintain the site. I have realized that it is not possible for me to take a deep interest in every subject discussed. Or, if I did, I'd just have to quit block printing for a while. So I just hit the delete button rather quickly at times and go on about things. The print exchanges (& I've taken part in 4) have been wonderful. I had thought they would occur once or twice a year and now realize that with the size of Baren they must occur more frequently for others to have the chance to hold a selection of originals and enjoy them as I have. I have decided to take a rest from the exchanges, however, in order--again--to do other things. I'd love to take part in an exchange involving calligraphy but won't be able to for several months. (One of my favorite prints was titled "Veniaminov designing Aleut orthography hears the sea otter origin legend and thinks of the first Backmesiter sentence, 'God does not die; man living does not live long.'" A title almost as large as the print. But if I can't get into the calligraphy print exchange, I'll just enjoy seeing them posted somewhere. In the meantime, cheers to all. It's great to hear your ideas and concerns. Best luck to the council. Let's give it a try and see how things develop with the hope we'll be able to maintain the spirit of friendship and encouragement that so characterizes Baren. Ray ------------------------------ From: "Lezle Williams" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:40:07 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8076] Re: Baren Digest V10 #883 charset="iso-8859-1" I really like this idea, also. I have been meaning to do an alphabet/woodcut or linocut series for a number of years- even have words chosen and some sketches, but never got to the blocks. This should gove me the impetus to carry it out... Lezle Williams >Regarding Arafat's "letter art" proposal: I think that this is rich with >possibilities and is not necessarily a departure from the hanga focus of >this list. If properly defined, an exchange with this as a feature >would be fun and in keeping with this traditional marriage of >text/letterforms with pictorial images that is common in oriental art. ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:49:34 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8077] re: So many exchanges! A few dear members have indicated concern over the many things going on at Baren and the many multiple exchanges going on now. I probably should not be taking this position as I have won several awards for being the world's biggest procrastinator... (one of the reasons I jumped started work way back in November on the spring libray exhibit idea)....but I don't think it should be that overwhelming for any of us. I am new at this. Probably the number one newbie of all the people participating in the exchanges (just look at my prints!) ...scary to be in such good company and have you prints sitting next to Grahams, Daves, Matts, John's (A & R), Ruth, Bea and all the other great printmakers onboard......but I also get very excited about being part of this group and I know having a deadline to meet keeps me pumped & somewhat focus. There are only two active exchanges going on right now. Number #5 had a three months deadline from end of subscription....even if you have not started, you still have all of february & march to do this...and Josephine's is still being prepared and deadline is not until sometime in the fall. The newsletter articles are optional, only if you want to contribute.....and let's see...what else is going on.........that's it!!!!!! Number 6 should be an open exchange according to pattern.......but signup has not started yet....so the deadline would probably not be until summer. An if a LETTERART exchange or other themed event was to follow.....it probably would not be due until late fall or early winter. Last year we ran into trouble because #3 & #4 came together during the holidays.....and some of us were doing the dragons also......let's not group them like THAT again!!!!!!. We are averaging four exchanges a year....Come on...if you love doing this. (and I know we all do, otherwise we would not be here!).....you should be able to find a little bit of time.....to make one print (30 copies) every three months. I too would not want to see an exchange every month or to have so many "events" going on that would make this an exchange bbs like Michael mentioned. But four or five a year seems to be a good pace for all. Just some of my thoughts.....thanks.... Julio....down by the schoolyard! ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:30:10 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8078] Re:Prints per day >Please don't start an Exchange for Language/Calligraphy/Text just yet >...this is my "Pet subject" and I am committed to two other print >exchanges at present..and my dinner is burning > >Cheers, Jan I would like to cast a vote on this suggestion. Lets wait until later in the year. You guys can be working on your images in the meantime. Graham ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:09:06 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8079] Re: contributing > One reason that > baren could keep up this quality, I see in the fact, that the above mentioned > equality helped to make access easy and did not discriminate new, or in > printmaking not so experienced members to speak out . There never should be a > reason that gives members the feeling, that they have to proof something > before they are "allowed" to speak out. > Michael, and others that may be uneasy, please I hope I didn't say anything that gave anyone the feeling that they have to prove anything. Everyone is allowed to speak out, has always been that way, will always be that way. In fact, everyone is allowed and welcome and highly encouraged to participate in exchanges, coordinate exchanges, give or go to workshops, plan and organize exhibitions, have or go to get-togethers, write for the newsletter, suggest ideas and _do the work_ that is necessary to make all those things a reality. And if I said anything that remotely implied the contrary, I surely did not mean it that way. Please do actively contribute, speak out, volunteer; everyone needs to work to make [Baren] what we all want it to be. Maria - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: Wanda Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:36:24 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8080] Re: contributing I would like to contribute something on this subject, too. :-) Michael, I can understand your hesitation about the changes in Baren. Sometimes, it feels to me as though everything is moving too fast, and I can't keep up. But, like Ray put it (so well!) if we start feeling rushed or pressured we can delete messages or not sign up for an exchange. I have this feeling of wanting to be part of it *all* - but the time will soon come, I won't be able to do that and still maintain the rest of my life. Baren will have too many things going at once for one person to participate in all of them. Exciting things, worth-while things - but just too many going on at once. But, while a lot of things may be going on, we can all still feel free to discuss to our heart's content. The foundation of Baren is just that - - a discussion group. All of the other stuff: newsletter, exchanges, shows all over the world - those are peripheral to the main part of Baren, which is a discussion platform. The letterart proposal by Arafat (it was Arafat, wasn't it?) sounds wonderful, and sounds as though many people are interested. But, I don't think anyone wants to be in that crunch that we had with 3 & 4 & dragons! I think outside exchanges (like the dragons & Josephine's trees) are an excellent addition to Baren. I applaud Pete White for taking on the dragons, and Josephine Severn (Dalwood) for organizing the trees! The council was organized (I use the term loosely - as it consists of former collaters of Baren exchanges) to take some of the pressure off Dave. Really it seems like a mini-Baren, we discuss pros & cons of issues for Dave & make a decision. But Dave has the tie-breaker vote & input. It's just easier for a smaller group of people to discuss and decide on things than 100 people. 10 people=10 colors. 100 people=100 colors! Plus, Dave can't *do* everything, he is just one person & Baren could easily take over someone's life. Hope this is of some help! Wanda PS and Ray, I saw you hit that delete button! ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:40:31 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8081] Re: contributing Wanda wrote.... >The letterart proposal by Arafat (it was Arafat, wasn't it?) Oh oh... It was Greg in Kampala...... who will be here in June. I don't want to be around when you two meet.....!!!! Graham ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:56:31 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8082] swapping money Of interest to all printmakers, For those of you that have time on your hands (!), here is another exchange that is going on on the wide printmaking virtual world: http://www.baschwar.com/printmakers/mintexchange.html This group is headed by [Baren] member Brad Schwartz and the exchanges are more open to other printmaking media. We're swapping money! Oh, and deadline is Tuesday. Maria - -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maria Arango, Printmaker The Printmaking Studio http://www.printmakingstudio.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "Lezle Williams" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:31:40 -0600 Subject: [Baren 8083] Re: charset="iso-8859-1" I know a few days ago there were some people asking about press info. Alot of folks have been asking the same thing and there are various opinions posted on the printmaking message board at: http://www.mtsu.edu/~art/printmaking/wwwboard/wwwboard.html For the record- I used a Dick Blick table top for years for relief prints and it worked just fine. Now I have upgraded to a larger Ettan (mostly had to for better quality etchings)- and love it. ________________ And now for a (controversial) question on my part. This is for those who are digitally inclined... I have an older (nearly 4 years) old PC with an 120MHz Pentium processor and 64MB RAM and a scanner, digital camera, Epson photo printer and HP laser printer, and Microsoft photo-editing software. I would like to explore digital imaging more- especially for freelancing possibilities. Do I start from scratch and start saving to buy a Mac G3 or G4, new scanner, Photoshop software? Is this overkill for someone more interested in "exploring" at this point? The school here will be having a Mac sale in a couple of months. Are the older Macs (I think they said they will have 580's) worth upgrading or would they be too slow? (last year they were selling for $25-50. If you have any input- please answer off line. I don't want to stir up any hornet's nest with the computer talk! Thanks, Lezle Williams Laughing Crow Studio www.laughingcrow.org ------------------------------ From: Arye Saar Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:44:25 +0200 Subject: [Baren 8084] Re: LETTER ART Arafat, It's very easy for you to suggest that. The Arabic letters are, to my opinion, one of the most beautiful letters in the world. And - it's a good idea. Arye Arafat Alnaim wrote: > Last week I put a suggestion for discussing an idea > for starting an exchange about LETTER ART. > Exchange in which we explore the richness and beauty > of our languages and multicultural. > Relating to that I have found that this link could be > useful to give more celerity to the Idea. > http://www.letterarts.com/lar/ > > Regards > Arafat > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: michael schneider Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:31:05 +0100 Subject: [Baren 8085] Re: contributing come on people hold it. I did not write, that I do not like the council or the idea of one, I did not write that organizing and having exchanges and joint exhibitions is a bad idea and I was far from suggesting the number of activities should be reduced. I was asking the question: "Are we doing the right things and are we doing them in the right way?" My only concern is that in the enthusiasm over growth and exchanges and the like we should not forget what it is that makes baren such an interesting place and especially in times of transitions it is necessary to recapitulate. And I am sure you understand, that sometimes someone has to be the advocates diavoli. michael ------------------------------ From: michael schneider Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:35:46 +0100 Subject: [Baren 8086] Re: contributing I have to add a post scriptum: First we were discussing printmaking and that resulted in exchanges, now we are discussing exchanges that result in printmaking. michael ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:46:11 -0800 Subject: [Baren 8087] Re: charset="iso-8859-1" Lezle,.....I have my brothers older than yours PC,...when I knew I was going to be a computer person,..I watched ZDTV alot,...the people there said it's cheaper and less of a headache to get a new unit,...upgrading whatever is not the best answer,....things are not always in concert,...this thing I have is always in a state,...200MHz,...but it's going to be here until it burns out. 'Got the money? Buy a new unit!!! Philip - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lezle Williams" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 11:31 AM Subject: [Baren 8083] Re: > > I know a few days ago there were some people asking about press info. Alot > of folks have been asking the same thing and there are various opinions > posted on the printmaking message board at: > http://www.mtsu.edu/~art/printmaking/wwwboard/wwwboard.html > > For the record- I used a Dick Blick table top for years for relief prints > and it worked just fine. Now I have upgraded to a larger Ettan (mostly had > to for better quality etchings)- and love it. > ________________ > And now for a (controversial) question on my part. This is for those who > are digitally inclined... > > I have an older (nearly 4 years) old PC with an 120MHz Pentium processor and > 64MB RAM and a scanner, digital camera, Epson photo printer and HP laser > printer, and Microsoft photo-editing software. I would like to explore > digital imaging more- especially for freelancing possibilities. Do I start > from scratch and start saving to buy a Mac G3 or G4, new scanner, Photoshop > software? Is this overkill for someone more interested in "exploring" at > this point? The school here will be having a Mac sale in a couple of > months. Are the older Macs (I think they said they will have 580's) worth > upgrading or would they be too slow? (last year they were selling for > $25-50. > > If you have any input- please answer off line. I don't want to stir up any > hornet's nest with the computer talk! > > Thanks, > > Lezle Williams > Laughing Crow Studio > www.laughingcrow.org > > ------------------------------ From: Studio Dalwood Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:31:43 +1100 Subject: [Baren 8088] Cut paper and letter forms exchange, council matters "So he would know that the Rain Dance was infact cut" Thankyou Graham, its nice to know that another old stickler will also compromise when the occasion demands it. In lancashire its called 'cutting one's suit to suit one's cloth'. I dont feel so bad now. Re the letterforms idea. A few years ago I met an oriental lady in a buddhist temple who was doing her arts thesis on asian calligraphy. She told me her approach was that the act of writing was an art performance of body and mind and the marks left by the brush on the paper were not the art form itself but merely the record of the event. The echo as it were, or documentation. This idea stuck with me. I was reading my latest copy of Imprint which is the Print Council of Australia's quarterly this morning. This paragraph caught my eye. Its by Alex Selenitsch about printmaker and book artist Petr Herel. "When reading, another world unfolds at the same time as the text is scanned. THis world is parallel to the text, inextricably bound to it but not the same. Text, which is a pattern of marks in physical stuff, is a matter of fact. Textual shapes and their order in space must conform to an agreed code to be able to work, that is to allow them to direct the reader's imaginary realm of meanings and associations which are not bound by convention. This imaginary realm is invisible, idiosyncratic, but through the material aspects of texts is knowable, shared and even transferable from person to person, from generation to generation, and from culture to culture. The act of reading thus spiritualises (in italics) the signs which direct it. Signs, which are just concentrated dirt, "come to life" and give direction to patterns of thought. The unfixed potential of the imagination is extruded into form and material substance. Only the illiterate (or completely utilitarian) think that the world of signs and the world of thought mirror each other. They touch and interact but they are not the same." This is a relevent subject for an exchange between printmakers and even between makers of artist books. From memory, I believe David has already ruled that the next baren exchange is to be themeless. Which leaves an opportunity for this to become a baren 'event' like the sacred tree exchange. As I have already set up the structure for one event I am quite happy to volunteer use of the event mailing list to host this as an exchange. Personally I am unable to join this at this time, though I would dearly love to. So Arafat if you want to go with this, make up your set of 'rules' and post them to me, I'll put them up on the website for you and your participants can join the onelist mailing group for organisation purposes. My fee is a set of prints from the exchange. Maria said "Josephine is doing a bang-up job at keeping it all together, and finding out just how tough it is to organize us artists-types into doing anything organized." Maria I did not like this comment. It assumes that I am naive and inept and did not know what such an exchange involved. I am an accountant with years of management experience, of course I understood what it entailed when I suggested it. I'm not finding it tough at all, not sure where you got this idea, unless you were projecting your own difficulties on to me. I can cope with a little thing like this, hence why else would I be doing a 'bang up job'. Yes I know you didnt mean to offend, its ok, Sis. I'd like to know the composition of the council please? I agree with Michael's comments. I understand the need for the workload to be spread, not a problem there. But I too object to the introduction of a hierarchical structure. The fact that the sacred tree exchange has been so well attended indicates that it is a suitable subject for baren and casts doubts on the decision to reject it as a baren exchange. The members have voted to go with it even though the mystery council rejected it without giving me good reason why. Bad call guys. We all know that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. I for one will not accept anything less than having an equal say in what affects me and only in a case where I -allow- someone to influnce my decisions. I did not authorise an unknown committee to make decisions on my behalf. I dont like the secrecy in all this. I still respect Dave's rights as list owner however. There is a subtle distinction here and I think it needs a lot more discussion. Josephine ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne Norman Chase" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:40:17 -0500 Subject: [Baren 8089] Surimono print question charset="iso-8859-1" Dave Just took a great tour of the Surimono series. Question. do you let the natural paper become part of the background. I realize a good portion of the background are other images, but is the paper part of the print , I mean the color. Also are the prints bleed prints, the kind that go to the very edge of the paper? I know some of them have interesting borders to complement the image, but some look like they go to the edge. Or have you cropped them to let us see the print only. I love the Red Dragonfly, so simple yet so intricate. I also love to see the graceful Oriental script on the prints. I can understand why so many of the Baren members would like an exchange, incorporating letters in the image. I can visulize the interesting scripts from Greece to the Far East, I wonder what our English letters look like to other peoples?? Jeanne N ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:01:31 +0900 Subject: [Baren 8090] Re: Surimono print question Jeanne wrote: > Just took a great tour of the Surimono series. Question. do you let the > natural paper become part of the background? The paper is part of the _image_. Anytime you see 'white' in those prints, you are looking at the paper itself. And anytime you see a combination of a colour paired with a lighter tone of the same colour, you are looking at the same pigment, but in one place it is used more thinly, so that it combines with the white of the paper to 'mix' into a lighter tone. The pigments (with the exception of the black 'sumi') are all completely transparent - the paper itself is a bed of 'white' with which all else is mixed. > Also are the prints bleed prints, the kind that go to the very edge > of the paper? I know some of them have interesting borders to complement > the image, but some look like they go to the edge. Or have you cropped them > to let us see the print only. In the case of the bleed prints, I crop them after the printing is done. You can't print right up to a raw paper edge and still get a smooth impression all the way; the baren just isn't able to hit the edge of the paper cleanly ... it's kind of like Maria using a 'ramp' to lead the car up to her big block. Dave P.S. The 'process' pages are slowly coming along ... http://w.com/surimono/process.html ... but now that the girls have gone back to Canada, the updates should come more frequently! ------------------------------ From: "John Ryrie" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:21:35 +1100 Subject: [Baren 8091] text exchange charset="iso-8859-1" >, Jan said: > >Please don't start an Exchange for Language/Calligraphy/Text just yet > >...this is my "Pet subject" and I am committed to two other print > >exchanges at present..and my dinner is burning > > This goes for me to ( not about the dinner, I'm having salad ) for me It would have to be after the exchange #5 dead-line before I could start thinking about another one. John ------------------------------ From: "David Stones" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:54:21 +0900 Subject: [Baren 8092] Re: Exchanges @ Speed charset="shift_jis" Dear All, Julio and others have mentioned the pace of the [Baren] exchanges and I've been reluctant to comment as I do not/cannot take part - the shear speed of the registration and deadlines set do not (to my view) do the best for woodblock art... time considerations and deadlines belong to the factory floor. With woodblock, as I see it, any time limit or any restriction on what one may or may not depict or the number of colours is falling into the trap of a mutual admiration system that can, and will, improve skills at the beginning but will often lead to corner cutting as the craftsman/woman in the artist competes with the artistic/creative side that demands experimentation, development, and often, allowances for failure - while at the same time trying to keep up with an enthusiastic beginning pace... Exchange participation, for the commercial printer who makes his living from his/her art is very difficult as he/she must juggle the production possible to maintain a livelihood and any exchange participation. When one print of 15 to 20 blocks can take up to two months to sketch, re-draw, mull over and then produce, exchanges are sometimes a luxury. It must be understood, that personal satisfaction with a job well done will not always fit a schedule... If the deadline decided cannot be met, due to failure of an idea or more time being needed for perfecting something, the restriction of a theme also can cause problems. What to do? Leave the dates open and let people submit what they can when they can. You simplify Organisation and at a certain fixed time the number of actually successfully completed works - or when the number reaches a fixed number who have said they will (NOT have to) complete - boxing and packaging to the respective people involved is arranged. Those who missed any cut-off date just go on to the next - eliminate as much "office work" and [Baren] "theme" discussions as you can. The exchanges should partially run themselves... ebbing and flowing with the time-available to the artists NOT to calendar dates. Leave all to the participants - except a size limit for the practical reasons of the case and handling. If you're a commercial printer you may have difficulty even creating one submission a year - If you're not commercial yet then you can enter as many as your time allows but no actual exchange itself must give time/subject restrictions. Also look to future plans when you may exhibit, have orders to fill or whatever. Just a few thoughts... from some years of finding out the hard way - that the printroom clock should always be stopped and the day is never ending... your actual printing speed is also of no concern. What you print is. Ishita (Dave S) ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V10 #884 ****************************