[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Tuesday, 23 November 1999 Volume 09 : Number 793 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:49:32 -0800 Subject: [Baren 6766] Saturated..... Barbara wrote.... >Graham and Dave and any other experts out there, I am contemplating my >next print and wondering if it is better to print layers over each other >or to butt the colors up. In my monotypes I have always layered the >colors, sometimes with five or six over each other. In translating this >to woodblock, I find the paper got too wet. Is there a solution to this? Hi Barbara I see Dave has answered this however here is some more thought. You really have to do a comination of both.... print layers over each other and butt the colours. If you overlay colours you generally have to go from light to dark. Just as you do in transparent watercolours. If you pile colours on one over the other then mud can and will occur. Are you using the hosho paper? You will be hard press to get good paper too wet. Hosho can take a lot of layers of colours over a 4 to 5 day period before it starts to show signs of saturation..... both colour and dampness. The tell tale sign is the pigment starts to squish out beyond the relief of the plate. The best advise as Dave explained is .... Give it a Rest.... Dry the paper and then re moisten as though you were dealing with unprinted paper and .... away you go as it will be just like new. Hosho paper is most forgiving. If I am at a point where I don't want to spend time drying and rewetting which can take a full day and night, I do the following. When I realize the paper is getting saturated I lay the just printed pieces all around the studio. They soon loose moisture. ( I have never had to do this by the by....except if the damp box has too much moisture and the paper gets saturated over night.) You have to watch them closely otherwise you will have to add moisture...... and around and around in a vicious circle. Depending on the dryness and heat of the studio it could be that after printing 5 piece, or 6, or 7, (you get the idea) it is time to put the dryiest prints in the damp box......you know the two pieces of damp blotting paper positioned between the plastic sheets. I never stack my Hosho printed pieces one on top of each. After finishing the days work I will spread the sheets in a random piie with about 3/4 of each touching in a circle, coming back to the first piece and continuing with another circle layer on top. I only do this at the initial stages of a print where large areas of colour are applied. As you progress with a print most times the print areas start to get smaller and dampness is never a problem. If you are get saturation all through the printing process .... it must be that the moisture content in your damp box/container (blush) is to wet. If you are using Shin Torinoko it saturates very fast. I have never had a problem with the pigments bleeding even when I get up to 30 plus colours. One last though Hosho paper is less fussy and more forgiving....(<: Graham Trust you ankle is mending fast. Bet you are glad you are a printmaker and not a winemaker. ------------------------------ From: Marcia Roberts-deutsch Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:03:21 -1000 Subject: [Baren 6768] Pandora's Blox Hello, all--seems like a casual comment set off a great (and possibly recurring?) discussion about art/prints/computers...Lots to respond to and think about, but for what it's worth, I'd be interested in getting feedback about the language in the current prospectus for the annual exhibition sponsored by Honolulu Printmakers. We've actually tightened things up this year (the show will be in March 2000) because of our concern about giclee prints and inappropriate "borrowing" of digital imagery (the things Jack was commenting on.) So here's the text: "MEDIA: Please note changes in criteria. Works in all hand printmaking media including lithographs, screenprints, relief, intaglio, monoprints, letterpress, artists' books and any work on paper which includes at least one of the previously state hand printing techniques as a significant element in its execution. Electronic and digital print media may also be used in combination with hand printmaking media or hand manipulation of imagery or process. "Categories of work which are not acceptable for this exhibition include: drawings, paintings, photographs (including those which have digitally printed) and any digital or photomechanical reproduction of work created originally in another medium. Prints must have been created within the last three years and may not have been previously shown in an O`ahu juried exhibition. The Printmakers and the juror reserve the right to exclude work which does not meet these criteria." We hope this will strike the right balance between a reaffirmation of hand process and an interest in being open to the visual languages of new media. So far, we've had one letter of protest (but no cancellations of membership!)--and we will no doubt hear more. But we've also got a small "computer art" group in Honolulu which exhibits on its own. Oh, we also require print documentation forms (e.g., info on size of edition, numbers and kinds of proofs, cancellation of matrix if done, etc., in compliance with Hawai`i state law.) If any of you have also been involved in articulating criteria for juried print exhibitions, I'd be interested in hearing from you. Thanks! Marcia Morse ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:39:58 -0800 Subject: [Baren 6769] digital prints and stuff Marcia, Am I reading this right, that images made totally in the computer would be acceptable? That is the implication I see, is that what you meant? Graham and Dave, Thanks for the insight. Guess I should have read all the tips. I am so stubborn, just like a dog with a bone. I need to try it for myself to see it doesn't work. I know this is how we really learn and remember, but it is frustrating. I can't use the good paper, Graham. I am saving it for something wonderful. Like Christmas. One of these day's I'll come up with an image that is worthy of it. Before summer, I hope. I will lay the papers out if I need to dry them in the future, I knew the problem and even though I did uncover them couldn't quite bring myself to lay them around the room. This would have solved the problem, I am sure. Also I was glad to hear that I could dry the paper and rewet it, for some reason I thought that wouldn't be a good idea. I know it would not be ideal, but in a pinch.....Anyway, thanks for the inpu, we struggle on. Graham, you will be so proud of John Amos when you see his print. He really has put all you taught us into it and even though he is making us look bad, I too am proud of him. Michael, how could I use less water? would I use more paste instead? I was printing the whole block one color, so it was a large area and tended to start to dry before I could print. I finally turned off the heat and nearly froze, but it solved the drying on the block problem. this is one time humidity would have been good. Jeanne, thanks for the kind words, fortunately I did not need a cast. It is so much better today I am truly amazed. Not nearly as bad as I first thought. I am actually walking without crutches, but only a few steps. Think I will be down just long enough for someone else to do Thanksgiving. Hmmmmm. Do you think she did this on purpose? That rash from the plastic is fairly common, lots of people are alergic to latex. They should put something between your skin and the plastic to prevent this and I know several people who need to wear neoprene or whatever gloves instead of the laytex. They are more clumsy. but no reaction. Have a great holiday to all of you who celebrate it and to those that don't. have a nice weekend. Barbara ------------------------------ From: michael schneider Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:29:42 +0100 Subject: [Baren 6771] Re: digital prints and stuff > Michael, how could I use less water? would I use more paste instead? What I ment to say was that adding more and more water is not a good way to get a transparent layer. To fight against the problem of having paper and block dry all too soon, I use two humidifiers, I removed the electronic, that switched off the device at 60 percent relative humidity. Dave will tell you that this is not so much a problem in Japan, but here in Austria the air is very dry an this caused a lot of problems for me. And I could not solve them by adding more water. And by the way, using more or less sheets of newspapers to control the degree of saturation works better for me than having the sheets lying around in my studio, you have to guard them and react fast enough when it is time to give them back into your damp-box, and if you miss the moment, you better let the dry competely bfore damenig them again, what my cost you a day or more. michael ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:31:01 -0600 Subject: [Baren 6772] re: newbie stuff Barbara writes: "As a new woodblock printer, I learned a lot doing exchange #3. Number one, don't let the paper get too wet....." To that I will add......we never stop learning regardless what how long we being at it or what level we are at! Here are my tips........ Be patient......the block & the brush must be made "ready". I always want to start printing right away....and I have to remember that only after many trial proofs is the brush and the block capable of delivering a satisfactory print......both need to reach a certain saturation point......it is better explained in the Baren encyclopedia.....but you know the point when the prints start coming out "good" one after another..... Keep your brushes separate. Sometimes I try to cheat and use one small brush for applying paste and a second one for adding the pigment and mixing. This almost always results eventually in failure or less than acceptable results. Need to use separate brushes for mixing the pigment & the paste in the block.....the reason being is that if not you always end up with tooooo much water in the block.............once you get going....keep the mixing brush dry ! (am I right ?) Love using the Kento registration.....don't think I would go back to a different method. It just becomes part of the original design. Julio ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:18:17 -0600 Subject: [Baren 6773] re: November 28th Dave Bull writes : "Everybody ready for next Saturday? What, you mean you don't remember what day that is?" How can any true barener forget our birthday ! I think we are all just waiting to see what type of celebrations you have prepared for us this time....... Our Baren is just two years old......how time flies when you are exchanging emails among friends...!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY BAREN !!!!! Julio ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:50:01 +0900 Subject: [Baren 6775] Re: wet wet wet ... Barbara wrote: > I can't use the good paper, Graham. I am saving > it for something wonderful. Here Barbara, is one of those occasions where I have to say flat out - no! And if tell a little story (which Lynita and Matt have been too polite to tell!), it may explain why ... When I was doing that little mini-demo at Matt's place last month, I used some of my own paper that I had brought with me - a few scraps of Iwano san's hosho. But both Matt and I were curious about his western paper (was this a BFK paper Matt?), so we put a piece into my little stack to see what would happen. So I thus had a miniature 'stack' of paper made up of 5 sheets of hosho and 1 of Matt's paper. I went through the process of making a print, and of course as this paper was completely new to me, I simply printed it using exactly the same techniques as the hosho paper - the same paste/pigment/water balance, and the same movement and pressure of the baren. It didn't work. The impression on the western paper was completely different from the basically 'normal' impression on the hosho. The major difference was a speckle - a lack of smoothness in the impression. Now before Matt has a heart attack thinking that I'm implying that his paper is no good, I must emphasize that the problem came not from the paper, but from the fact that I used the wrong techniques for printing on it. What are those techniques? At present I don't know - one sheet isn't enough to teach me much about it. You'll have to ask Matt, he has worked through the question, and has learned how to make attractive impressions on it. But do you see my point? Using a different paper ... 'saving' your good stuff for 'when I get good' ... can bring you endless grief and trouble. This is something I myself took years to learn; I too 'practiced' on cheap paper first, before trying to make 'real' prints on 'real' paper. You don't want to hear this I know, but there is no getting around it - the techniques used to make a woodblock print are _totally_ dependent on the characteristics of the particular sheet of paper in front of you, and are not directly transferable to another kind ... not even for an expert printer like myself (excuse me!), and certainly not for somebody with not so much experience. Bite the bullet, chop up some of that hosho, and start learning how to use it. Once you get familiar with using it, you'll never (as in _never_) go back to using anything else. *** A couple more points on that paper thing ... Please don't feel that I'm 'down' on Matt's paper. Just looking at his recent prints will show you that yes indeed, it can work very well indeed. My point was just that I myself haven't learned now to use it. And if you're concerned about the _cost_ of hosho, I'm certain that Matt's paper is far far less expensive. Matt has been a bit under the weather recently, but when he's back on-line, I hope he can find a bit of time to offer some pointers on that paper ... *** Julio wrote: > Sometimes I try to cheat and use one small brush for applying paste > and a second one for adding the pigment and mixing. This almost > always results eventually in failure Hmmm... You've confused me a bit with your description of this Julio. There are of course lots of ways to do this sort of thing, but the common way here involves three 'tools'. First a splash of the pigment goes onto the block (with the hakobi). Then a dab of paste goes on (with a short bit of wood like a chopstick). Then the main printing brush mixes them together and smooths them out ... The brush never goes 'into' the pigment bowl or the water bowl, and thus never has a chance to get too wet. On occasion, if the water balance gets a bit low (when using fresh dry block, etc.) then a corner of the mizubake (the goat hair water brush, which is sitting in the water bucket right beside me) is gently touched to a corner of the printing brush, to transfer just a 'dollop' of water. Keeping the tools separate thus gives you perfect control over the mix of the three components - pigment, paste and water. You can increase or lower each of them as necessary during the printing. *** Maria wrote: > I seem to be having a problem viewing images on Dave's site. > Specifically, images in the temporary folder ... I've checked this again Maria, and can find nothing wrong. The logbooks show normal activity ... If you want to 'poke around' in that folder and see what's in there, just point your browser to: http://woodblock.com/temporary/ That folder is not 'protected' against intrusion, so you should be able to see a listing of the files inside it, most of them .jpgs of something or other. Clicking each one should open the image in your browser window. Dave ------------------------------ From: Maria Arango Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:57:18 -0800 Subject: [Baren 6776] paper notes For those interested in paper notes, I have collected resources and other stuff about paper as well as my own notes on some papers. Still under construction. Just go to my site and scroll down to Visit the Studio, then click on Paper. Hope this is helpful to some, also, contributions on differents paper are gladly accepted. Or if you have a print on the net that has been printed on one of the papers mentioned, I will gladly link to it to show visitors the particular paper "in action." HAPPY BIRTHDAY BAREN!!! Should we have a party at the bar? Maria ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:51:15 -0800 Subject: [Baren 6780] Re: wet wet wet ... >But do you see my point? Using a different paper ... 'saving' your good >stuff for 'when I get good' ... can bring you endless grief and >trouble. This is something I myself took years to learn; I too >'practiced' on cheap paper first, before trying to make 'real' prints on >'real' paper. For all A little story is in order.... For 15 years I taaught the technique of transparent watercolours. This involved many hundreds of workshops and classes all across Canada. With out fail I would be asked at each and every workshop..."can I use cheap paper to learn on and then move up the the good stuff when I've learned the techniques." I would explain that it does not work that way..... First you might....might.... learn watercolour technique using cheap stuff. And IF you do get any sort of control you will go from highschool level back to kindgarden when you change to the good paper. You have to learn all over.... getting rid of bad habits .... and relearn the characteristic of the good stuff. Penny wise Pound Foolish. My Pennies worth. Graham ------------------------------ From: B Mason Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:15:10 -0800 Subject: [Baren 6781] paper OK, OK, you have convinced me. The next print will be on good paper. I would like to hear about BFK, though as I have a lot of it. Barbara ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V9 #793 ***************************