[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Wednesday, 15 September 1999 Volume 08 : Number 708 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:29:08 EDT Subject: [Baren 5860] paper, etc Dieu Donne Papermill in NYC also teaches great papermaking classes - I've also done work-exchange there & taught papermaking to kids through them. Anyway, I took a class in Eastern paper-making there w/Mina Takahashi, and before the class ( helped MIna cook & clean the fiber (a whole process in itself!!), then we beat it by hand, etc - all these things before you even pull a sheet, which is a much more tricky process than "Western" paper-making, as you pull it in layers, and it's easy for it to come completely apart. All this is to say now you can appreciate why this lovely paper costs so much, in fact it doesn't seem so expensive when you know all the work that goes into it- best wishes Sarah ------------------------------ From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:51:52 EDT Subject: [Baren 5862] more paper, etc Julio wrote: > Some of us can't afford $18 for a sheet of paper; I can't. There are other perfectly good Japanese papers, I got some kozo paper from Hiromi paper (the phone no's in a previous post, I think the website is www.hiromipaper.com) that costs around $7.00 a sheet, if you're interested. Anyway, whatever works best for the TYPE of work and effect you want -- I'm referring strictly to what I think works best for hanga. Thank you Jack also, I always find it unbelievable when people refer to hanga as "simple", etc - when each component of the process, tools, paper, printing brushes, etc were so specifically developed for this art, and as any of us who have tried this method of printing, you know it cannot be learned in one day! Dave - hope you're surviving the wild & wooly weather that I saw in Japan on the weather channel today, and best wishes also to anyone in a region being hit by the various natural disasters that seem to be occurring recently! take care all, Sarah ------------------------------ From: Marco Flavio Marinucci Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:45:02 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5863] Re: Baren Digest V8 #707 Hey there Graham, they said that varnish is flammable and therefore not allowed on planes. I will be looking for the sharpening stones; I remember you having a hardware store catalog that had them and they shipped to the US. I am off to Italy in 4 weeks; anybody want anything special back (aside from the obvious coffee, food, steal a piece by Michelangelo for me or a man/woman who speaks the language)? I was just in Belize and Guatemala (went to the amazing Maya city of Tikal; WOW!, it felt like being in Italy again being surrounded by such an old culture, I kind of miss that). Lemme know if you are looking for some special paper (the amazing ROMA by Fabriano is much better there, not comparable to the one you buy here). A presto, Marco ------------------------------ From: James G Mundie Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:30:39 -0400 Subject: [Baren 5865] my paper is better than yours, nanny nanny boo boo I'm not about to get in the middle of this discussion, really. I leave that to Julio, Graham and Jack to sort out. However, something Julio wrote reminded me of an interesting story (or at least a story that _I_ find interesting). Julio wrote: >A bad print on prime hosho is still a bad print. An a Picasso or a Miro >is still a work of art even if printed on a paper napkin. Perceptions, perceptions... Cast your mind back to the hoary days of the early 1950's, if you would. At that time, a good friend of one of my uncles happened to be pediatrician and general family physician to the not-yet-enshrined painter Jackson Pollack. So the story goes, Jackson -- being a painter and a drunk -- had very little money so most of the pediatrician's fees for service to his family were settled in trade. On one occasion, Jackson happened to offer a small painting as compensation. The doctor didn't particularly care for the painting but accepted it nonetheless. A few years later, Mr. Pollack was turning the art world on its collective ear and his paintings started selling like crazy. So, the good Doctor dug Jackson's painting out of the back of the closet and displayed it prominently. That's typical of any proud investor, but what happened next was not quite so typical. It seemed the artist now considered that he had been a bit over-generous to the good doctor and asked for the painting back! Jackson was politely told to go to hell and the doctor continued to display "his Pollack" proudly at every cocktail party. When I last saw it, it was hanging over a fireplace on Long Island. So, the question becomes: Is that art? The particular merits of the Pollack painting are a matter of taste. The doctor didn't think that painting was "good" until it was worth actual cash, and I suspect he still looks at it and doesn't see a work of art but rather a lucky business transaction. He probably thinks he was really shrewd, as well. I suspect that Julio's hypothetical Miro on a napkin would fit in the same category: not really a great work, but a doodle done by somebody famous -- a first class relic. Did you ever hear that story about how Picasso would doodle on any cheque he wrote for a large amount knowing that the receiver would rather have that piece of paper from the great man than the money and would thus never cash the cheque? Now, would I want to own that napkin? Sure! I'd put it in a deposit box and later sell it at auction to buy a house. That is not art; that is commerce. Julio, perhaps you could rephrase your original statement like this: A bad print on great paper is just that unless that bad print is by someone famous; then it is an expensive bad print on great paper. Mise le meas, James Mundie ------------------------------ From: Wanda Robertson Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5866] Lees Valley Tools-etc. Don't want to butt in here Marco & Graham, *but* :-) Lees Valley Tools is the name of the company you're thinking of, Marco. I got several catalogs from them and they have a wonderful array of wet sharpening stones. The itty bitty ones come in a set. For a catalog call 1-800-871-8158. They really have some great stuff! You got to see Tikal? Oh, I am green with envy! Our family planned a trip to Guatamala many years ago, everyone wanted to go to the same place for once. But, some uprising or another happened & we didn't get to go! While in Italy, I kept having to remind myself - yes, these buildings are *real*, yes they really are as old as they look. I do want something from Italy, Marco. I will e-mail you off-list & maybe we can work something out. NO, it's not an Italian man - although they *are* lovely! :-) You made me feel better about dragging home a beautiful Fabriano water color block from San Gimignano. Tell us about Roma paper - we are on a paper binge here. Wanda Oops, they have a web site also: http://www.leevalley.com ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:31:14 +0000 Subject: [Baren 5868] Re: Julio's long reply.... John Ryrie wrote: > Some time ago I went to the print room in the National Gallery of > Victoria to look at some of Hokusai's prints from the thirty-six Views of Mt > Fuji. Wonder full as these prints are the paper that they were printed on had > become brittle and yellow. Although the paper of an original Hokusai may yellow over time, unless it was very badly treated, it is very unlikely to have become brittle. That is a characteristic of wood pulp papers, and particularly those manufactured with acids in the pulping process. A collector would indeed like to have those prints if they were not too badly yellowed, it is generally accepted as a condition of older prints. Jack ------------------------------ From: "Philip Smith" Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:45:33 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5869] Re: Julio's long reply.... Jack,..yep,..and storeage is a factor too,...if a wood drawer, for example, of a certain type is used it's bad characteristics could tranfers to the printed sheet,.....over time. Philip ------------------------------ From: Bea Gold Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:07:41 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5870] Re: more paper, etc A little more on paper - go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~hiromipaper/ and click on - about "Washi" - it is an education if you haven't made paper like Sarah - I no longer question costs - I'm still experimenting with different papers - in misterart.com - which is "lightwight Rives"? lots of Rives listed. Bea ------------------------------ From: Bea Gold Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:24:38 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5871] Re: my paper is better than yours, nanny nanny boo boo James, I love you story and agree 100% - I have only my paintings in my houise except for one small Picaso aquatint from his erotica series - my daughter gave it to me for my 50th birthday - a friend just gave me a little catalog from the Martin Lawrence galery and I found the print # (B163). I enjoy the Picaso - enjoy my paintings, they are of family members growing up - - love saying the only other artist in my house is Picaso - yes, I want a bit of that napkin and I'd definately put it on my wall! Wonderful Miro story too. Bea ------------------------------ From: Bea Gold Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:40:14 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5872] drying sized paper Yeah, thanks Jean - I put them on plastic table cloths all over my living room floor - thought maybe you had a space saving method. I just bought paper from Hiromi Paper International, Inc.at Bergamot Station in Santa Monica. A wonderful place. Went with Ruth Leaf - I bought something called DHM-13(SP) (on sale for 1/2 price of $12 a sheet) and Kotchi white - (1/2 price of $3.50) I used the DHM-13 which was supposed to be lightly sized but fibers pulls off the the smoother side when I printed, damp - I turned it for the next printing with the same results - I think I have to size it again. The Kotchi is not sized. Can't wait to feel good enough about my hanga to buy some of Graham's next too large load of paper. ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: [Baren 5874] Re: Julio's long reply....the end! Hi jack...... I think we understand each other and agree on the big picture. When I used the word "primitive" in the sentence below; I was using it in it's first definition....that being: something old, traditional & original to the culture.......not in it's secondary meaning relating to something inferior. > By today standards the truth of the matter is that the methods were most >primitive... In other words; japanese craftmens had created and developed tools & techniques unique to their art form and the tradition in the craft had lasted for a long time until it started to slip away with the coming of the industrial age. Sorry about the confusion, like I said before, I am not an eloquent writer. Now......who wants me to critique their prints ?????? Julio ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:50:37 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5875] Re: Lees Valley Tools-etc. Sorry Marco .... did not mean to not answer fully. If you can't find the wet slips down there then the phone number Wanda sent you 1-800-871-8158. must be the one. I could not find a number that was good in the States. At any rate the Catalogue number for the Miniature Water Slips is #60M93.10 This is for 4 slips and the price is 23.50Can$ The other Size is the ones about 4 inch long and taper with a round edge. You should have 1000 grit... #60M90.01 @ $13.95 and the 4000 grit ...# 60M90.02 @ $14.95 All this comes out of the Canadian Catalogue..... Trust they use the same codes in US catalogue. What say Wanda? Regards, Graham ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V8 #708 ***************************