[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Monday, 23 August 1999 Volume 08 : Number 670 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sherpsm@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:00:39 EDT Subject: [Baren 5321] Re: Looking for inspiration Andy Eclipse inspiration: well I still haven't started my HaleBopp comet picture yet - so strike when the vision is clear- no matter how long it takes. Joe ------------------------------ From: kim and paul Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:11:04 +0000 Subject: [Baren 5322] Re: Baren Digest V8 #669 I am not jumping into the computer debate can-of-worms again, but I will take Gary up on my reasons behind simplifying woodcut images. The wood I use-birch plywood- tends to force me to simplify, as it can be very splintery. This is good for my nature, because I am one who loves every intimate detail of something and will work months on end to perfect every single line, shade and form. The print I did for the #2 exchange is a good example. I could have shown every single power line going to each tower. But then I would have never made it in time for the deadline! Besides, I had asked myself, "is it necessary to show every single detail to get my message across?". Birch plywood makes this an impossibility anyway, at least in small scale. As for printing everything myself, this is not a burden. I love the rhythm and repetition of printmaking. But cutting the image involves consideration for many variables. Kim Kaschimer Medina Tucson, Arizona ------------------------------ From: Pedrobot@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:56:36 EDT Subject: [Baren 5323] Re: Silly Season Strikes Forum! On the computer issue: I can see and understand the use of the computers to experiment with colors. I prefer a color reduction method of printing, which doesn't give you a lot of room to mess around in, as the block is destroyed in the process. I have been known to make half a dozen photocopies of a black and white sketch to play with different color schemes... But for me, a lot of the fun of it is _not_ knowing exactly what you're going to get. The holding of your breath when you first pull back the paper to see if it bears any resemblance at all to what you had in mind. I have experienced many wonderful (if completely unplanned) surprises when my concept was made reality. Plus, it just feels more like art and less like technicianship to me that way. Once I start breaking things down, step by step, into their components and analyzing and stressing and calculating I feel like I've lost the whole point of the thing. So what if you screw up sometimes. I like the weird stuff better half the time anyway. I also like the challenge and exercise of only getting one chance. I agree with Graham on that one- there is no way to hone your skill better than to do it. That's one of the reasons carving appeals to me- you can't go back and erase. You get what you get. It makes me stretch artistically, trying to use a "mistake" as an integral part of the design. --Pete ------------------------------ From: Barbara Mason Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:43:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 5324] To compute or not to compute Gary, Another can of worms on the Baren, or I guess an old can of worms revisited. I think it was before my time. I think we should all be using this wonderful new tool and as soon as I learn photoshop, I will be using it. Any tool that makes it easier, faster of better is for me. I hope to learn this winter, I have photoshop 4.o but have no idea how to use it. As far as the design causing thought to the cutting, I have to admit that the print is the by product for me, I am such a process oriented person that the making of the print is the whole enticement. Maybe when I have been doing woodblocks longer it will come to thinking of the cutting before the design.Being able to sell the results is a nice side, but not the reason I make prints. What can I say? I am obsessed with printmaking, it has taken over my life and now thanks to the Baren I am doing woodblock on top of the the other techniques I was doing before. I have noticed that I am starting to look at life in more layers and in more compartmanets than before woodblock, so every new process changes the way you see things until you really master (will we ever master hanga?) the process. Then you automatically shift gears when starting a certain process, sort of like speaking a different language. Does anyone else do this? Dave, Does this count as silly enough thoughts for the drawing? What a beautiful print. You will be sorry for encouraging Wanda and myself, you have only yourself to blame. Barbara ------------------------------ From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baren 5325] More on paper I just opened my Yamaguchi paper from Graham. It is indeed a beautiful paper! 50 sheets+ 8 momme heavy weight ...... $16.43 US$(27" x 21") 6 momme medium weight ...... $13.28 US$ 100 sheets+ 8 momme heavy weight ...... $16.06 US$ 6 momme medium weight ...... $12.98 US$ At $26 per 40" x 26" sheet (100 sheet price), McClain's "kizuki hanga" is cheaper, since it is nearly twice as big. (Of course it is cheaper than that if you can figure out how to order it from Tokyo.) This is right and proper, since it seems to be coarser, not made with the same beautiful surface. Still, I do like K.H.! I cut my blocks more crudely than Graham, they are not as detailed, so I like the texture and extra weight of that paper. But all this discussion makes me hunger for more variety. The Yamaguchi will definitely be better for delicate work. It seems to me we need to use different papers for different prints. Thank you Graham for going to the trouble to offer this paper! I know keeping track of all this is not easy. And the Yoshida barens came in very handy, perfect for the 8 x s10" prints we made in class. I sold one to my friend Deb Decicco, a printmaker who visited the Horizons workshop. (She was having trouble printing evenly with the white plastic one.) I see they are $100 from Elaine! Do you have a supply, or was I just lucky to find a few? Printshops supply the cardboard ones which are worthless! NOTE TO ALL: Don't forget to OIL your baren, squirt some mineral oil on a square of etching blanket and rub the face of the baren on it. All barens work better with this, plastic, bamboo, ball bearing, etc. Also all the ones with bamboo sheaths should be TURNED often. Hold the baren lightly with fingers on the face, thumbs on the back, and turn the ategawa disc gently clockwise within the sheath. This took a bit of practice for Bea and Barbara, but it saves wear on your baren. Also wanted to mention a substitute baren Prof. Noda made for me, which may be of use to those on a budget. He made them from braided straw chinese coasters, glued to a thin (~1/8") plywood back. He used very small screws and nuts to add a twisted leather handle. First put the screws through, then lots of airplane glue to the wood, press on the coaster, and clamp together between pieces of wood for a couple of hours. Somehow he left the screws hanging out the top so you can attach the handle after the glue has dried. April Vollmer ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:48:53 +0900 Subject: [Baren 5326] Responses ... Gary wrote: > I sure like that camera work, nice crisp detail. Is that camera sold only > in Japan? You sent me the name of it some time ago, but I've never seen > that model offered here. What are the technical specs for it so that I > might compare with what I see here? It's the SONY Digital Mavica FD-71 ... which stores images on a floppy disk, which I then simply stick into my computer for instant uploading. The battery runs for nearly two hours of constant use, and will let you store nearly 2000 shots before recharging. But this camera is now getting on for nearly two years old, so I assume it's totally obsolete. I'm sure there are more sophisticated and cheaper models around by now. *** Gary and Joe wrote: > Dave, you find a lot more in _your_ old book stores than I ever see here. That's because you don't live at the center of the universe! > I noticed on an auction site (Ebay) there were books referring > to Kotondo and Azechi. Are these book available in Tokyo bookstores? > Perhaps a list of new books on the hanga > artists might be added to the reference pages. Anyone in Tokyo have that kind > of time? Well you know what the answer to _that_ question is ... but there is a way that you might be able to find such books. Some of the hanga 'bookshops' here, notably Yamada and Hara Shobo, put out a catalogue three or four times a year. These catalogues are jammed full of illustrations of prints they have for sale, everything from the old ukiyo-e, right up to modern stuff. In addition, they have in the back section, a simple listing of zillions of print-related books they have for sale. I've got Yamada's newest one in front of me now; it's 152 pages full of stuff, the last 42 pages of which are book listings. The 'bad' news (for some of you!) is that it is of course all in Japanese ... I see for example, a copy of 'The Complete Prints of Azechi Umetaro', published by the Machida museum a few years ago (including one real print) at 50,000 yen. Yamada's catalogues are 800 yen (plus postage), but are sent out free to regular customers. Here's their new home page: http://www.hanga.net/ (but there's nothing really in there yet ...) Hara Shobo is moving faster. Here's their web site: http://www.harashobo.com/ They have their entire book catalogue on line. Here's the English section: http://www.harashobo.com/ukiyoe/bunken.html#=C5=C9=E2=A2=EF=AA=C5=D1 Here's info on getting copies of their print/book catalogue, which is similar to Yamada's: http://www.harashobo.com/ukiyoe/catalogue.html Dave ------------------------------ From: James G Mundie Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:56:17 -0400 Subject: [Baren 5328] inspiration Gary asked about the manner in which we go about designing our prints. Gary, While I don't utilize the computer to work on my designs (it's not that I'm opposed, it is just quicker and easier for me to do it by hand), I do belong to the "sketch and experiment" school. Generally, an idea will strike me and I start fooling around with an image in my sketchbook or a handy piece of scrap paper. Sometimes the image will take on a pleasing life of its own and simply beg to become a print, painting, or 'finished' drawing. Other times, the idea simply does not work out as well as it did in my head and I'll have to scrap it or set it aside to mull over at some other time. I go through phases in which the idea for a new series will grab hold of me and focus my attention to the exclusion of whatever else I might be working on at the time. The print I contributed to Exchange #2 was one such case. One day I was thinking about how greyhound racing is sort of considered to be horse racing in miniature and I suddenly found myself sketching pictures of greyhounds wearing saddles. This in turn got me thinking of doing more prints playing along this theme. It became sort of a fun silly diversion from my usual portraits, but will probably lead to a long series of prints in that vein. "Thoroughbred" owes something in its turn to the my earlier print of the flammable dog, "Variation on a Chinese Lion for Phil Bivins" (which you can see if you go to http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/entries/015_01/015_01_frame.html). This particular print also inspired me to start another series of prints dealing with animals in other unusual circumstances. How much time do I spend designing as opposed to cutting? Well, the cutting certainly takes longer, but I wouldn't say that I exert less effort in the planning. However, I tend to let the work evolve as I go. Most decisions are made as I draw the design on the block, but the 'look' of the cut block will certainly be different than a simple reproduction of my drawn lines. Mise le meas, James Mundie ------------------------------ From: April Vollmer Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baren 5329] Akua-color Dave, I take up the gauntlet! With so many baren related happenings in my life, it should be easy to find a few more postings of relevance, so I can have a good shot at the draw for your beautiful print! I just heard from Susan Rostow, who is anxious to let everyone know about her new waterbase ink. It is formulated for monoprints, but works well for hanga too. There is lots of pigment in the color, and it is well labeled and lightfast. Akua-color, wb-inks@worldnet.att.net McClain's now sells it, too. It does include gum arabic and glycerine, and some retarders I believe, so it dries more slowly on the block than straight pigment. Is this a drawback? April Vollmer ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:13:06 +0000 Subject: [Baren 5331] Re: Silly Season Strikes Forum! This seems like a good time to get around to a question for you, Dave, but I would like to first point out that if we are to abide by the normal posting rules, in particular: > 2.Try to avoid posting more than once a day. This 'rule' is necessary > because of the amount of traffic we generate. Instead of > sending several short notes, reply to a number of things in one > longer post, with clearly marked sections. ...then we will all pretty much even out our chances for your draw. Anyway, that's OK, because I'm really more interested in some information. Graham and I have been comparing shark skin, his Dog fish, and mine (I believe) Tiger shark. He has observed that neither are quite up to the task of conditioning brushes, and I noticed that neither are as coarse as the photos of yours that you posted a while back. I was wondering if you have gotten, or can get, more information on the best species of shark for this purpose. For Gary on his question concerning the difference between Sosaku Hanga and Shin Hanga, it seems to me to be at least partially a matter of the difference in training between the printers. The Shin Hanga artist's printers were trained as apprentices, with years of training, and the self printing Sosaku Hanga artists were for the most part not well trained printers, at least as far as I know. There also seems to be a quite different intent on the artists part, with most of the Sosaku Hanga artists rejecting directly representational art as "old fashioned" and sentimental. It was also my understanding that although Hiroshi Yoshida did occasionally carve and print some of his blocks, it was always while working with his normal carvers and printers. It was my impression that he never carved or printed the entire set of blocks for a print. That is not to say that it is not possible for an artist to be both a good designer and a good carver and printer, but I doubt that it would be possible to be all three and still be as prolific as Yoshida. To Joe on his question about sources for books on Hanga, I have found that a lot of Japanese Print books seem to be fairly small printings, with limited distribution, and soon go out of print. Although I have not had very good luck locating these out of print books through ABE and the other usual book searches, I have found a few good sources. Paragon books at http://www.paragonbook.com/ has a fair selection, but they are a little high in price. By far the best source I have found is Hotei Japanese Prints in Holland, at http://www.nvva.nl/hotei/index.htm, where I recently found The Complete Wood Block Prints of Yoshida Hiroshi and The New Wave book on Shin Hanga, both difficult to find books. They have a very large selection of out of print books on earlier Hanga artists as well. Also to Gary, I am hardly in a good position to enter the computer debate, as I am just now working on my design for my first print, but as I am doing my sketching and my final line work with brush and ink, any scheme that I can think of to use my computer seems to just complicate things. I suppose that I could scan in the final line work and use Adobe Streamline to digitize it, then use Photoshop to try color variations, but by the time I took the time to figure out how, I could have carved and printed the thing. So I guess it depends on your style of print, and perhaps degree of computer graphics literacy as to whether it is actually worth the trouble. Is that it? Have I answered all the things that I wanted to? Now that I see all these messages streaming in, I guess I should have broken this into many tiny postings, but perhaps Dave will give me special points for following the posting rules :<) Jack ------------------------------ From: Sherpsm@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:35:14 EDT Subject: [Baren 5334] Re: Silly Season Strikes Forum! Also Dave and Jack - thanks for the info in the book publications. I know it is hard to find Japanese woodblock reference books - and again thanks! (Anybody have a copy of the Hasui Mokuhangashu they will part with?) Computer debate - One of the most striking things about Japanese prints (Hokusai for example) is the flowing line! How can the energy of a hand be scanned - digitized - re digitized when printed and still retain that same energy. A carver could do better from the original. But I believe in the power of computers. Look at what the Pixlar studio turns out! Joe ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:08:14 +0900 Subject: [Baren 5335] Re: Sharks and stuff ... Jack wrote: > Graham and I have been comparing shark skin, his Dog fish, and mine (I > believe) Tiger shark. He has observed that neither are quite up to the > task of conditioning brushes, and I noticed that neither are as coarse > as the photos of yours that you posted a while back. I was wondering if > you have gotten, or can get, more information on the best species of > shark for this purpose. Step one: phone Gosho-san, to see if knows anything about this. His instant reply ... "Sure. The best kind of shark to use is the one known as 'kasu-zame'." Step two: start looking in dictionaries to find out just what that is in English. No go. Step three: Well, what about the latin name? That's a better idea, and Gosho-san is now working on it. I'll pass on his reply when it comes in. As for the comment that: > neither are quite up to the task of conditioning brushes ... I have to go "Hmmmm ..." I could spin a long story here, but will resist the temptation, and merely state that I was having trouble with my first shark skin after I got it stretched and dried. The brushes just wouldn't get softer, no matter how much I 'worked' on them. Matsuzaki-san was visiting one day, and I brought it out for his opinion. Do I need to tell the rest of the story? I think you can guess ... Here are a couple of hints: - - soften up the hair first by standing the brush in a shallow pan of warm water for 15~20 minutes. - - rub _fast_ and hard. If you're wimpy about it, and take a rest every minute or so to change your hand position or something, it doesn't work. Maybe the friction has something to do with it, I don't know. Keep moving! - - wear gloves! Might have some photos soon, as I'm trying to find a bit of time to clean up and glue down a new shark skin. The old one has lost a lot of teeth ... (Yeah right. Why not be honest and admit that the old one doesn't seem 'quite up to the task of conditioning brushes' ...) New tools, new tools, gotta have some new tools ... *** Re, the comments on Sosaku Hanga and Shin Hanga. When the Japanese Sosaku Hanga (creative prints) movement started up, they were _determined_ to do everything by themselves, and not to let the 'technicians' get in the way of the art. Nice idea, and it worked well for them for a half century or so. Interesting though, to look through their most recent exhibition catalogue, and count how many of the prints were obviously printed by 'hired guns' ... > That is not to say that it is not possible for an artist to be > both a good designer and a good carver and printer, but I doubt that it > would be possible to be all three and still be as prolific as Yoshida. I'd change one word in this sentence - I can't believe that it is possible to be all three and still be as _good_. Maybe some of you will be angry at this. Most of you who read this are doing designing, carving and printing. But (excuse me) your prints are not _carved_ as well as a professional carver - they are not _printed_ as well as a professional printer. In my case, it's the other way 'round, being a professional carver/printer, my designs (my _own_ designs) are 'zero'. Truly I believe that _collaborative work_ - from each his/her best skill - - is the path to the best prints. It's an absolute tragedy that it is pretty much finished. (I don't expect you all to agree with me, and am certainly not asking you to 'switch', just expressing how I see it ...) *** Jack also wrote: > ... the normal posting rules ... > Try to avoid posting more than once a day. Well, I'm breaking it here I guess ... Thanks for keeping the 'rules' in mind, but please don't feel that they are immovable. If you post in the morning, somebody replies soon after, and you have something worthwhile to offer in reply, then please do so. It's important that we keep a good flow of opinion moving. I'm just trying to avoid a zillion little chopped up messages filling the Inbox all the time ... I think we've had a pretty good balance recently. Dave P.S. The girls are looking forward to the draw on the 7th. They're already placing bets on who they think will win ... ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V8 #670 ***************************