[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Saturday, 24 April 1999 Volume 07 : Number 539 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Bull Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:11:41 +0900 Subject: [Baren 4146] Re: Abstraction vs reality _So many_ interesting points in this discussion ... I'd have to write a book to respond to them all ... Just a couple then ... Jacob wrote: > Be careful virtuosity and its result, vacuousness. This applies to the > abstract work that is the center of this discussion but also David Bull's > work as well. If you think about it, both of your work may be more similar > than you think. > > Virtuoisty and technical skill do not make art, they only make images. This point strikes right at the heart of what I do (I am a technician, not an artist) and is thus something I think about a lot. It comes back to me sometimes in comments like "Oh, you have such wonderful skill; what a waste to just make reproductions. Why don't you use your talent to make something _worthwhile_, to create some _new_ art!" Such comments are well-meant, but they miss an important point. It's not that I'm good at what I do, but that I do what I'm good at. (And there is a very big difference between the two.) I make technically skillful prints (and hopefully one day can make truly virtuosic prints) because that is what I can do. I don't make 'art', because that impulse is simply not there within me, and without such an impulse being present, any new images I created would be vacuous at best ... junk at worst. I suspect there are a whole lot of people in this world who call themselves artists who are actually in the same position as me; there just isn't any particular creative urge trying to get out. So Jake, I'm quite well aware that the prints I make are kind of 'abstract' in that sense - quite decorative, but basically meaningless. But they give me a great deal of pleasure, and that seems to be shared by others too. > Please be patient with my words. This subject is a hard one to work out. > Let's continue the dialogue. I'm pleased that you felt able to make such comments (which could have been taken as insulting) on this forum. It shows we've got a pretty firm base for discussion established! *** Jim Mundie wrote: > The very act that we all go through to make our prints is one > outrageously abstract process -- especially for you, Dave! Twenty > impressions? Sheesh! Jim, twenty impressions is _nothing_ for this technology, and there is no false modesty in that statement. Take a look at the Paul Jacoulet print reproduced at: http://www.hanga.com/images/jacoulet1-small.jpg or a larger blow-up of the same picture: http://www.hanga.com/images/jacoulet1.jpg ... more than 300 impressions on this one ... Your points about my recent Sukenobu print being quite abstract are very true. Much of the depiction of people in traditional Japanese art is so stylized that some of it would not look out of place among the comics/caricatures in a modern newspaper. Those artists invented their own set of symbols to represent various objects and body parts, and many of them bear no resemblance at all to the physical reality. But taken _overall_ no one could argue that such a picture is an 'abstract'. The language being used by the artist, and the language understood by the viewer, overlap almost completely. The picture can be 'read' quite readily. This is not the case, I think, with the kind of prints that started us off on this discussion ... *** Many many of you have said that you have enjoyed Michael's prints. I too share this feeling .. that there is _something_ there to be enjoyed. But even after hearing many interesting viewpoints on this, I still have to say that I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with work like this, if I felt that there was more visible _purpose_ to it. Why did he put this mark here ... and that mark there ...? Why? ... Dave ------------------------------ From: mkrieger@mb.sympatico.ca Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:49:05 -0500 Subject: [Baren 4147] from start? Gary Luedtke wrote: > Let's go back to the comparison of music. ...If you simply take the > same notes with no guiding emotional intuition, and jumble them > together, you may be using the same elements of the grand composition, > but it is meaningless noise. ... Now when I look at abstract art, there > may be artistic elements in it, ... but it is not composed in such a way > as to mean anything to me, and consequently it is of no interest to me. > It is visual noise. Your comments remind me of what people say when confronted with an unfamiliar music style whether rap or 'new music', gamelan or aboriginal chanting. Take on faith that there _is_ an emotional intuition guiding the work and that the jumble is not generated in a completely random manner. - For the sake of discussion any way... "I would like to hear from one of you abstract artists on how you develop one of your compositions. Maybe that would be more enlightening." Gary, I am not sure where you place my work on the representational/abstract spectrum. Some people can see the landscapes in my black and white work, others can't. So I will answer these questions for my own work. I would welcome other baren members to reply as well. This post is getting pretty lengthy so I am only going to reply to the first question for the moment. #1 "How do you conceive of the work from start to finish?" I began from my experience of the rural landscape of my area. Winnipeg is situated in the bottom of a huge glacial lake bed so its pretty flat around here. The land is generally dry and trees except right beside rivers and creeks do not grow large. In traditional landscape compositions applied to this landscape, the horizon line rules. I felt frustrated trying to create life-like detail. When I succeeded, the work felt static and dry compared with my experience of the landscape which was so colored by the wind (and there is always wind) and the constantly shifting light. I began to think about the clouds, sky, clumps of trees, water filled ditches and cultivated fields as part of one integrated experience. The challenge I am interested in is how to distil into a single block that environment which stretched from horizon to horizon and overflowed with life and colour. (I know this is a highly personal response. Many people find driving across the prairies puts them to sleep.) Well, that's the start part any way. More later.(if you are still interested?) Mary Krieger Winnipeg MB http://www.mts.net/~mkrieger ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:41:12 -0400 Subject: [Baren 4149] Re: abstraction I like the statement from James: > It depends on the viewers experience and desire to interpret I take it that he means abstract art. I believe for those artist's who conceive {good word), the arts may have a variety of meanings. A work of art may serve as an exercise in skill and manual dexterity. Perhaps it is a comment on society and morality torn out of the personal involvement of the artist, which may be an abstraction of the emotion involved. Perhaps it tells a simple story. For whatever reason the creation of the art has served its purpose. The next step is the viewers impression when the art is displayed. A common saying from the public when viewing an abstraction is; "My child could do this." I say, only if he were Picasso!! When faced with objects which may seen meaningless, the viewer who wants to understand abstract art must give the artist the benefit of the doubt. It is usuallly the inadequacy of the viewer , not the artist. I remember, as a teenager going through the L.A. museum and looking at the abstractions. I could not understand them, so I kept going back to the room of Rembrandts work. (I lived 4 blocks from the museum when I was growing up and was very infuenced by what I saw there). I was always puzzled by the "then meaningless art". I devoured art books, ask questions of my art teachers and began an understanding of abstraction. So ,I guess what I am saying is "Education is the answer"/ The problem being, how does a viewer with no education know the difference between "over the sofa art", and good abstract art. I also agree, more time should have been given to the first Portfolio Exchange. I just took Elizabeth Atwoods sensitive print down from the wall and in its place put up "Bumblebee" by Roger Ball. My question on this print is; The paper is so heavy , how did you get soooo many textures in the print? I think a few solid areas would have made the print stronger. However I find the print colorful and charming and am enjoying it . Constructive criticizim helps us all. And I hope no one will feel bad if their work is done in a constructive manner. Perhaps the next Exchange could be; Start with the first print and let us all give a few comments. Then when it has run its course, go to the next one until all have had a chance at the "hot seat". I welcome any and all to comment on my work, anytime. I can take the bad and ignore what I think is of no benefit. No problem! Did I say all of this? Jeanne PS; I disagree with David. What he does takes skilll, and creativity and total sensitivity. I could not master what he is doing!!!!! ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:23:04 -0700 Subject: [Baren 4150] Re: Abstraction vs reality Dave wrote: > Download this file: > http://www.voyager.co.jp/OnScreenArt/NirvanaEngine/NirvanaEngineShortClips.sit.hqx > WOW! Say what about abstract art Dave? (<: Ladies and Gentlemen.......I think this can be counted as a classic gotcha....... Regards, Graham ------------------------------ From: Sherpsm@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:11:27 EDT Subject: [Baren 4151] Re: Abstraction vs reality To all The Japanese Print and its arrival in Europe was quite a visual and artistic event. Wasn't it the line, the abstraction of space, the use of flat color planes in Japanese traditional prints that excited the artists of Europe and help feed the Impressionist and later the Expressionist movements? The arrival of Japanese prints helped liberate the European artist from the Solon's conventional realistic treatment of subject matter. My first impressions of Michael's prints were of microbes or satellite views of the earth. One could observe, enter and journey there. It was Robert Motherwell (I believe) who saw his drawn line magnified and that launched him into some beautiful and powerful abstracted images based on that magnified view. Native arts are often based on abstraction. In particular look at the beautiful and complex images of the Native Peoples of the Pacific Northwest. That abstract line and surface treatment is centuries old. So art traditions are varied and inspiration can be from many sources. Art traditions as well as individual pieces are often misinterpreted before they are understood and enjoyed. The beauty of the Japanese print has survived and I believe abstraction will certainly continue to excite the eye for generations. To each his own -- thank goodness. Thank you all for the thoughts. Joe ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:03:02 -0400 Subject: [Baren 4152] from start? from Mary: > Well, that's the start part any way. More later.(if you are still interested?) Yes, absolutely Mary, I am interested. I have no trouble understanding your words, you write and express yourself very well, and maybe this way you can help me see and appreciate this style of art more. I would definitely like you to go on, please. Gary ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:52:12 +0000 Subject: [Baren 4154] Re: Abstraction vs reality Joe wrote: > In particular look at the > beautiful and complex images of the Native Peoples of the Pacific Northwest. > That abstract line and surface treatment is centuries old. This brings back quite well the point about abstraction being subjective. To the artists and their audiance, the members of their community, these images were not at all abstract, but stylized symbols combimed to be read as familiar mythic episodes that could be claimed as part of a families history and heritage to bolster social prestige. They would have been quite recognizable either as separate symbols or, added together, as whole stories by even the children in the community, much in the same way that a few elements in a Japanese work can be recognized as a reference to a certain literary work, or even a specific chapter or passage from a specific literary work by those versed in the culture. Does that make it abstract? Only to those that don't possess the cultural point of veiw to "decode" the work. So what is the line or relationship between abstact and symbolic? This brings to mind a site that was pointed out by someone a while back. I am fairly familiar with Ken Wilber's work, but wasn't aware of the web site (thanks who ever that was). At this site: http://www.shambhala.com/wilber/html/artmission.html he has a very interesting essay on the evolution and mission of art. See what you think. Jack Reisland ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:04:21 +0900 Subject: [Baren 4155] Re: Various ..... Graham pulled over to [Baren] a thread from [After Five] ... > Download this file: > http://www.voyager.co.jp/OnScreenArt/NirvanaEngine/NirvanaEngineShortClips.sit.hqx > WOW! That link is just for Macs. The main link (in English), with other software for Windows systems too, is: http://www.wonderlab.com/home/h-welcome.htm You can obtain demo downloads of two programs that do abstract on-screen 'art'. Graham then went on to say: > Say what about abstract art Dave? (<: > Ladies and Gentlemen.......I think this can be counted as a classic gotcha....... Gotcha? I don't think so Graham. Why do you think I sent that link just now? Beautiful? Yes, definitely. Abstract? Yes, definitely. Understandable? Yes, easily ... it's wallpaper. Nothing more, nothing less. No 'meaning' intended by the artist ... no 'meaning' received by the viewer ... *** Julio wrote: > Hi graham, still can't get thru. Julio, are you using Graham's _new_ address? He moved to a different service provider a month or so ago, and his address changed. http://www.members.home.net/gscholes/ *** William wrote: >Are there any of us involved in this discussion group that live in Texas? Nothing came back on this one William, so I guess you're out of luck. And looking over the membership list, I can't see any addresses that are obviously from that area ... *** I spent the day down in Tokyo yesterday, most of the morning in a visit to Mrs. Ito, the wife of the carver who passed away in late December (who is shown on that video that Jack just sent out). We had a good interesting chat about their life and work together. About an hour into the conversation she moved over to the area where his workbench had been (it's gone - she had a carpenter convert it to a small desk for herself), and came back with a couple of drawers of his carving tools. She said that as per his request before he died, his tools were being donated to a local museum (the people from the museum are coming to pick everything up in a couple of weeks). She laid down the trays and said "Go ahead. Pick out what you want ..." After the ambulance crew got my heart started up again ;-) she added: "There are some 'duplicates' here, so I'm sure it's OK if you take some". And indeed there were some small chisels that were almost identical. What to do ... how many could I dare take? I hesitated just a bit too long, so she dipped in herself and pulled out four: a hangi-to and three aisuki. They are here beside me now as I type this ... beautifully toned deep brown wood, rubbed to a wonderful sheen by decades (many decades) of use by Ito-san. She says that they date from just after the war, as while he was called up and sent away to fight, their house was totally destroyed in the bombing, and they lost everything. He had to start from scratch again when he came back ... I am not going to use these knives. I am going to keep them untouched, just keep the steel oiled and clean. And I am going to learn ... indeed, am already learning from them. The hangi-to is bent! He has tweaked an 'ever-so-fine' curve on the blade (towards the flat side) and I can see that when dressing the 'flat' back side of the blade the presence of this curve puts the 'focus' of the sharpening right at the very tip of the blade, avoiding that 'rounding' of the edge that is so easy to do if one is not careful ... How many other 'secrets' are hidden here? Many, I am sure. I have an appointment to go back to her place next Wednesday morning. I'm taking my camera (that _close-up_ camera) and a notebook and some measuring tools. I'll be spending a few hours going through those drawers trying to get as much down for the Encyclopedia as I can ... Dave ... who is starting to wonder: "When I get 'old', what am I going to _do_ with all these fantastic blocks and tools that people have been giving me ...?" ------------------------------ From: mkrieger@mb.sympatico.ca Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:35:57 -0500 Subject: [Baren 4156] materials and process So maybe you are wondering from what I have said so far why I didn't just go ahead and do a straight representation, maybe a bit loose around the edges and say what I wanted without confusing the issue (and some would say that's exactly what I did, but not everyone, so I'll continue). As important as my subject matter are my tools and materials - the actual physical block that faces me, the paper that will receive the impression and the ink - that insidious stuff that mediates between the two, the tools themselves each with their own distinctive characteristics - all these are part of the work. I am not creating a landscape but a woodcut of a landscape. To create a perfect illusion would deny the physical nature of the materials. At this point I would like to remind everyone that I am talking about my _own_ working method not recommending or imposing it on anyone else. I like the gestural mark. I like the way my eye can react to the traces of movement that the artist used to create the object. It creates a connection between me and the artist. I can imagine my hand making the marks that I see, feeling the motion in my own body. So I thought a more gestural approach to cutting the block would create the feeling of motion in the composition. Now cutting a block of plywood is not the same as using a brush and ink. At first I was frustrated because I could not control completely the way the wood would respond to me attacking it with the tools. Chipping, splintering, break throughs all taught me something about the dance between the materials and my tools. I learned what to expect from the wood and what not to expect. I hear an echo of my experience in Michael's story of how he started working with stone tools. The process of creating the work _is_ part of the piece and needs to be revealed by the finished product. Remember the earlier disclaimer at this point also. So to sum up to this point - there are three things that have to be balanced out in my work - the physical experience of the landscape, the physical qualities of the materials and tools and the physical process of carving and printing. I want the piece to convey something about each of these to the viewer. Mary Krieger Winnipeg http://www.mts.net/~mkrieger (ps Don't forget to let me know if you have had enough) ------------------------------ From: agatha Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:19:46 -0700 Subject: [Baren 4158] Re: Abstraction vs reality got the video today, jack and david. thank you so much! i am going to invite my critique group over this weekend for popcorn and some inspiration. i'll send it on soon... ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:34:09 -0700 Subject: [Baren 4159] Christmas in April. Dave wrote.... >Beautiful? Yes, definitely. Abstract? Yes, definitely. >Understandable? Yes, easily ... it's wallpaper. Nothing more, nothing less. Hey, you got that right....some abstract is and should be wallpaper. You have done a yeoman job of acting as devils advocate here .... good one. >Julio, are you using Graham's _new_ address? He moved to a different >service provider a month or so ago, and his address changed. My old server url is still in service so you would still be able to get connected... I had a years contract which terminates in Sept. Any contacts are automatically routed through to the new cable server. >She said that as per his request before he died, his tools were being donated >to a local museum (the people from the museum are coming to pick everything >up in a couple of weeks). She laid down the trays and said "Go ahead. Pick >out what you want ..." Christmas comes early in Japan..... Lovely. >... who is starting to wonder: "When I get 'old', what am I going to _do_ >with all these fantastic blocks and tools that people have been giving me >...?" Actually I have often wondered what will become of .... my .... blocks. The tools will go to my son who is presently heavy involved with sculpture are... Graham ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V7 #539 ***************************