[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Wednesday, 7 April 1999      Volume 07 : Number 518

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:38:47 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3885] Re: Baren Digest V7 #517 

Thanks Jean, that got me there too (Marco's Site), but did 
you run into a Java error when you tried to click onto the column
with the other information.  The woodcuts are strong and energetic.
Good work, Marco; I want to see them all.

Gayle

------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnjgold@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:53:07 -0700
Subject: [Baren 3886] elderhostel class 

Look up
HORIZONS: THE NEW ENGLAND CRAFT PROGRAM  look for
August 22  - called Chinese Woodblock
http://www.elderhostel.org/catalog/states/21su.html
Bea Gold

Would be fun to see you there

------------------------------

From: Jacob Roquet <roquet@giex.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:08:31 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3887] Clap Clap 

I just ordered Jack's copy from the video.

After I submitted the order, I started thinking about David and his
Internet presence via the listserv and his WWW site. This site is truly
exceptional and I think we should all applaud him for making this so easy
to communicate and learn... and, as such, rewarding. His small touches and
input from others as well all add up to  such a valuable experience. This
includes Jack's services, Mosses, Ray's, Graham's and you know who the rest
of you are.

Thank you David...  Clap, Clap, Clap

------------------------------

From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:33:57 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3888] Re: videotapes 

Jack,

     Thanks for your scholarly answer to my questions.  I presume this is
the very reason museums underlight their displays, making it difficult or
impossible to realize the full impact of the original image.  It's an
attempt to keep the object in better condition for a longer time, even
though it will not be fully appreciated because it's impact is deadened.  
Strange dilemma.   Also why you find reproductions more colorful than the
originals perhaps, as the reproduction could be shot under bright light for
a moment, then re-tombed in its dark print box for posterity. 

Which brings up a question.   Can a short shot of photo-lighting have a
long-term effect on the life of a print, or is sustained lighting required
for that?  

    Thanks again for the information, Jack.

Gary

------------------------------

From: Sherpsm@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:32:12 EDT
Subject: [Baren 3889] Re: Paper and Print Care  

On the Care and Storage of Prints
I store my collection of prints in acid free boxes. 
I have found two sources for archival storage items. In no particular order.

Light Impressions    1 800 828-6216   www.lightimpressionsdirect.com
PO Box 940 
Rochester, NY 14603-0940 
And
University Products, Inc.  1 800 628 1912  www.universityproducts.com
517 Main Street  PO Box 101
Holyoke, MA
Both have extensive catalogues with all kinds of things to spend one's money 
on.

Joe

------------------------------

From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:56:04 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3890] Big Tools/Small Tools 

Jack, great description of yellowing!

I have to cast my vote with Graham about the tools. (I'd love to see your
list and pricelist, too. One of the problems with teaching hanga is that it
is difficult to find an inexpensive set of tools.) I've never been sorry
for spending money on good tools. The Japanese tools seem to be made of the
best steel, though I have some French and American u-gouges I use. Of
course the kento-nomi is very nice to have for cutting the registration
marks efficiently, but it's maybe #6 on my personal list.

In order of importance (to me!):

1. a 4.5 mm to (pronounced toe) The to/toe is a knife used to outline
everything so you get that nice beveled edge. You hold it as if you were
stabbing (a power grip), and pull it toward you. They come right and left
handed.
2. a small (2 mm) u-gouge
3. a large (4 mm or more) u-gouge  The u-gouges cut away the low areas, and
cut textures. Really big ones are for clearing.
4. 3 mm aisuki, small round-beveled chisel for clearing up to the nice
sharp to/toe line.
5. soainomi, a large round-beveled chisel, as big as you can afford, they
are expensive, but great for clearing and smoothing.

This stuff can all be ordered easily from McClain's. 1-800-832-4264. Don't
forget a fine synthetic stone, (try Woodworkers catalogue too). If the
tools get sharpened briefly before each use, they stay in shape.

How does this compare to other people's toolkits?

April Vollmer

------------------------------

From: Jack Reisland <reislandj001@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:27:29 +0000
Subject: [Baren 3892] Re: videotapes 

Gary Luedtke wrote:

> Jack,
>
>      Thanks for your scholarly answer to my questions.  I presume this is
> the very reason museums underlight their displays, making it difficult or
> impossible to realize the full impact of the original image. 

Yes, that is why the dark displays. Reproductions of prints are more colorful
because the publishers can often go a stack of prints of the same image to
pick out the best and brightest one to photograph.

> Which brings up a question.   Can a short shot of photo-lighting have a
> long-term effect on the life of a print, or is sustained lighting required
> for that?

Another good question, and one that I have not seen researched too well. I
don't think that the exposure from a photo strobe or a scan of a print causes
any damage beyond the time that it is being exposed, but it is difficult to
quantify the amount of photo degradation from a flash or strobe. I am sure
that long-term exposure is much more damaging than a very infrequent exposure
to flash or scan.

Jack

------------------------------

From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:52:48 -0700
Subject: [Baren 3893] Re: videotapes 

>Another good question, and one that I have not seen researched too well. 

The reason Public Galleries and Museums don't allow flash picture is to
prevent light damage.
There is a potential of thousand of people taking pictures that would
damage works.

Graham

------------------------------

From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:05:55 -0700
Subject: [Baren 3894] Re: Baren Digest V7 #517 

marco, i love your prints.  i would say more, but that about sums it up.

------------------------------

From: "Bea Gold" <bnjgold@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:22:16 -0700
Subject: [Baren 3895] more claps!  Clap Clap 

>Thank you David...  Clap, Clap, Clap

I absolutely agree.  I don't know how many people I have told about David
and this wonderful site.  Thank you David and all.  Bea Gold

------------------------------

From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:01:29 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3896] Various .... 

Gary asked:
> What is the interplay of paper discoloration and pigment lightfastness 
> over time?   ..

... and Jack answered far better than I could ...
>    OK, so that wasn't very short, but you should see the long answer!

I for one, will look forward to his long answer ...  A book on this one
day, Jack?

My own thinking on these points is perhaps a bit perverse; although I
understand the approach that most people seem to take - that an art work
should be preserved in its original condition as best it can - I find
myself bumping up against one cold hard fact ... woodblock prints
improve with age!

Speaking (as always) of the traditions I am familiar with, a 'just made'
woodblock print is too hard, too cold and too bright.  Only when time
has passed, and the things that Jack mentioned, the acids, ultraviolets,
etc., have had a chance to work their magic, does a woodblock print
develop the soft and gentle mood that is its true 'personality'.

If there were indeed some way to arrest the action of all those things -
the ultimate goal of the preserver/restorer, I guess - I would not want
to apply such a technique to my own prints.  Please don't misunderstand
this Jack, I'm not trying to denigrate your work.  Of course I too want
the prints to be preserved in the normal common-sense way - an
acid-free, soft-light, well-aired environment - but it's just that I
would like to let nature take its course for say a hundred years ... and
_then_ freeze the process!

But then, I guess I could say the same thing about _myself_!  I think
I'd like to 'freeze' my own aging process just about now ...

***

Sarah wrote, re her monkey print:
> if I sent a scan of the chop would any of you be able to decipher it?

Please don't post it to the main list Sarah.  I'll be happy to receive
it either at my own mail address, or at the [Baren] ftp site; and will
then upload it to a place where we can all see it easily, for inspection
and comment.

Scan the entire image if you can ... not just the signature ...

***

Re the comments on the tools ...

When I recommended to Jake that he look at general-purpose woodworking
tools, I wasn't trying to recommend buying cheap stuff ...  I too think
that money spent on good tools is well worth it.  My point was just that
someone without access to 'specialized' printmaking knives and gouges,
can quite adequately do the job with general-purpose tools that are
available everywhere.  

Wanda wrote:
>I have 3 tools from McClain's that I really like ...

Please, let's hear which ones these are.  This is just the kind of
information that Jake (and other members too I'm sure) are looking for,
I think.  Let's hear what you use, and where you got it ...   Thanks
April, for posting your list ...

***

Jack would like to get the video duplicating job wrapped up, so may I
ask that anybody who wants one, but who has yet to make their request,
please do so within the next couple of days.  The request page:

http://woodblock.com/forum/video.html

will close on Friday night.

***

Jake wrote:
> Clap, Clap, Clap

Thanks Jake, but from my point of view, the phrase you wrote a couple of
lines earlier in that posting:

> ... input from others as well all add up to such a valuable experience ...

is the key one!  I would like to work towards that ideal situation -
where a leader is someone who simply provides a framework (and perhaps a
direction or motivation), and who then stands back out of the way while
everyone pours out their own knowledge and drinks in from all the
others.

Seems to be working pretty well overall ...

Thanks everybody!

Dave

P.S.  We're now down to the final three spots in the exchange ...

------------------------------

From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:18:10 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3897] Re: aging prints 

David comments on age!

David your answers on the aging and personality of the woodblock prints is a
taste issue. It need not go against the technical importance of preservation
that Jack is talking about. What I mean is that we should preserve the
prints in their original condition. And if you want the aged dirty look,
(like the way we all appreciated the Cistene Chapel before restoration) one
should start out with aged, dirty looking colors. If you want that, I say start
with it.

D

------------------------------

From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:36:09 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3898] Re: aging prints 

Daniel wrote:
> David your answers on the aging and personality of the woodblock prints is a
> taste issue. 

Yes of course.  Please don't think that I am trying to tell anybody else
what to do. I simply expressed my own opinions on this.

> And if you want the aged dirty look, ... one should
> start out with aged, dirty looking colors. 

I think I wasn't so successful at explaining myself.  I have a good
little pile of woodblock prints here, ranging in age from the brand new
ones I made last week, right back about 250 years or so.  (Although
certainly not very many of the latter, you can be sure!)

The new prints are, as I mentioned in the previous posting, hard and
brittle.  The sizing is still present in the paper, which is thus stiff
and inflexible, and the pigments, no matter how carefully blended and
chosen, seem to lie side-by-side without truly blending.

To _my_ eyes, the most beautiful prints I own are those at about a
hundred years old - from the mid-Meiji period.  The paper has become
soft and indescribably beautiful both to the eye and the touch.  The
colours have softened, with all 'hard' tones gone, and they now blend
together in absolutely perfect harmony.  It is difficult to conceive of
how any man-made object can be more beautiful ...

Add another hundred years ... and things have gone downhill.  The paper
is now more than soft - it is fragile, and cannot be handled easily. 
Some of the more delicate colours have faded to a dull greyish patina. 
The print has now become an 'antique', of interest mostly for its age,
and not for its intrinsic beauty.


Hiroshi Yoshida mentions something similar in a passage from his book:
> The water-colour painting is at its best the moment it is finished, 
> and the best one can do is to preserve it in that condition. 
> But it is different with Japanese prints, as we have already observed. 
> The precious element in Japanese wood-block colours, of which the 
> production is so complicated and difficult, seems to be in their
> improvement with age, while others deteriorate. 

So Dan, it's not that I want 'dirty' colours, its that I want this
overall 'blend' that seems only to come with a certain age.  I can well
understand how you may feel differently about this; I suspect that most
artists will feel the same - that is the purpose of your art, to arrange
the materials - the pigments and paper - in the way that you feel is the
most beautiful way.  Now.  While things are under your control.

For me though, I want to add that extra ingredient to the mix ...  I
think that Father Time will treat my prints very well, and I'm more than
happy to turn them over to his care ...

Dave

------------------------------

From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:11:54 EDT
Subject: [Baren 3899] "chop" stuff 

Michael wrote:
>If you send the scan quickly I might be able to ask Hideharu Mishio 

My schedule's a little nutty but I'll see if I can get the scan together in 
the next day or so -- I'll let you know - thanks -- 

Sarah

------------------------------

From: "Daniel Kelly" <daniel@vowel.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 21:15:03 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3900] Re: aging prints 

Your right David. As an artist I also think, if you express what you want 
you can have it.

D

------------------------------

End of Baren Digest V7 #518
***************************