[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest               Friday, 19 March 1999       Volume 06 : Number 495

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:14:36 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3635] Re: critiques.

Graham

Thank you for the kind words.  You ask if I knew what I was doing?  I did
not have the foggiest idea.  This was my first attempt to use watercolor.  I
was, and still am, unfamiliar with transparent vs opaque watercolor and
decided to just pick the six colors I liked and see what happened.  If you
flip the print you will notice how the voilet bled through so much it almost
looks like the front.  All my experience has been with etching ink.

I used tube watercolor, some Speedball and some other brands since that was
what I had on hand.  I am sure there are better ones out there and of
course, one of these days I will try pigments.  For the actual printing,
each plate has three figures.  I used a brush to apply ink to three of the
colors and ran it through the press.   I then inked and placed the second
plate offset to the first.  If you compare Dave's print in hte slide show
and yours, you may see that the offset is different for each.  Registration
for this kind of print is not critical.

I would appreciate any other critics jumping in.

As to your other critques, I could not agree more.  Gee...what talent.

And no, I will not cancel.  If your personality was the deciding factor I
would never have even signed up.  :-))

It is the opportunity to meet Marnie and other members of Baren....and yes,
even Greg, that I am looking forward to the workshop.  One of the things I
want to learn is this use of tube watercolor and pigments.

Cheers
Ray

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From: Shireen Holman <tholman@clark.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:48:27 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3636] Re: press vs baren, and baren question 

I realize that several people have responded about this subject. I just
wanted to add that I joined Baren because I wanted to learn about something
that I am very interested in and know nothing about (Japanese woodblock
printing). I was pleased to see that I could offer something in return
(advice about aspects of printmaking with which I am very familiar). I
would be sorry not to be able to have such exchanges, because everyone
benefits from an exchange. All members increase their knowledge, experience
and expertise by learning from each other.
Now I have a question about using a baren. I have a student grade baren
from Daniel Smith (this may be my problem?) I was printing a block which
was 18" x 24". It took me a very long time, and lots of careful lifting of
the paper, putting it back and rubbing some more, to do each print. In
fact, in a day I was only able to make about 4-5 prints. I thought I should
be able to get a better impression more easily. I was wondering whether the
problem was the baren itself or perhaps the fact that I was using oil based
inks. Is it better (not just from an aesthetic point of view) to use water
colours with a baren? The paper I was using was an Indian handmade paper
which I misted until it was damp but not soaking.
Thanks for any advice.
Shireen

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From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:47:16 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3637] Ebb and Flow 

Yay for waterbase hanga woodcut!!! I don't mind a bit on viscocity...it
does relate somewhat. I've done it, too, but now I've seen the light.
That's why I keep writing about the great color you can get without
solvents or a press using that great old Japanese technique!

Interested to hear Jack hasn't found more in the library in Hawaii, I
thought it would be a stronghold for Japanese prints. How is it out there?
I have a friend in Honolulu who keeps inviting me to visit, but it's so far
from NY! Almost as easy to get to Japan! I really must get there to check
on the printmaking.

I'm with James on following up a bit more on the exchange portfolio, I
wanted to hear from Karla and Roxanne on how they printed their especially
beautiful prints. I wrote up my print in detail, enough to satisfy the most
compulsive among us I hope! I want to know more about others. What is
interesting about the portfolio is that it makes it easy to see the
differences between oil and water printing.

Also, I wanted to say I've contacted Judy Mensch from Manhattan Graphics
about her interest in showing the Exchange Portfolio. Since I have a
portfolio in New York maybe I could work something out with her. We shall
see!

P.S. How many of you are going to Grahm's class? Sounds like a blast, be
sure to report! (on regular Baren!)

April Vollmer

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:30:17 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3638] Re:  baren question 

Shireen wrote:
> Now I have a question about using a baren. I have a student grade baren
> from Daniel Smith (this may be my problem?) 

I should perhaps be careful what I say here, but yes, having a 'student
grade' baren from Daniel Smith may certainly be a problem.

A little story ...

Flashback to 1989: David is making a trip from Japan over to LA to do
some printmaking demonstrations at a large 'Japan Expo' there.  He's
bringing his family with him, and will make a stop in Vancouver to see
friends and relations.  He plans on taking Amtrak up from California to
Canada, and because the route passes through Seattle, he thinks this
might be a chance to stop in and see those nice folks at Daniel Smith. 
He's bought bits and pieces from them before, and gets their catalogue,
and has noticed something a bit amiss in there that he thinks they
should be told about.

He writes them a letter, and they say 'Sure stop by!  We would love to
hear what you have to say.  We're always trying to improve our services,
etc. etc.'

So he gets off the train in Seattle, parks the family in a hotel, and
goes over to see them, lugging his carving/printing demonstration box. 
He is shown into some kind of executive office, full of gorgeous redwood
and green plants.  The guy sits down behind the big desk and says 'What
can we do for you?'

The message that I had for him was that the page in their catalogue
featuring barens was somewhat in error.  They had misunderstood some of
the terminology used here in Japan.  Professional barens are known as
'hon-baren' (real baren).  There are also some barens made specifically
for art students and 'not-quite-so-serious' printmakers.  They are known
as 'gakusei' grade (student grade), and some of them are really quite
good. And then there are 'barens' (I use the term loosely) that are simply 
toys - meant for elementary school students and their teachers to muck 
about with in class.  Toys toys useless toys! These are labelled 
'shogakusei' and 'sensei' grade (Elementary student / teacher).

You can see what I'm getting at.  Smith was featuring this _useless_ stuff
in their catalogue, and listing it as 'teacher' grade and 'student' grade.  
I guess the people they were importing it from described it to
them that way, and they took their own meaning of the word 'teacher' and
'student'.  

The guy heard me explain this, and I showed him with samples what it 
was all about.  He then ... looked at his watch, and said that he 
'had to go to a meeting'.  He wasn't the slightest bit interested in 
any of this stuff.  I was shown to the back door of the shipping 
department, where the kid there called me a taxi, which I took back 
to my hotel.  The next morning we headed off to Vancouver, out of 
pocket for hotel, taxis, extra meals, etc. etc. ... all for nothing.

I've never had anything to do with Daniel Smith since then, nor have I
seen their recent catalogues.  Still the same crap in there?

And how many 'would-be' printmakers have bought one of those things in
the ten years since then ...?  And as a result got completely turned-off 
printmaking ... how many?

Dave

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From: mmflavio <mmflavio@slip.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:47:27 +0000
Subject: [Baren 3639] Water based pigments overprinting 

Hello,
a water based with baren question.
I am producing my own inks mixing dry pigment, water, methyl cellulose
and a dab of gum arabic. The problem is that when I overprint a plate
onto an area already covered by pigment it rubs off on the plate and
therefore the new ink I am trying to print is quite uneven or doesn't
transfer at all. Any suggestions?
April? Graham?
thank you in advance,
Marco

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:04:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3640] Re: critiques. 

Ray wrote....
>It is the opportunity to meet Marnie and other members of Baren....and yes,
>even Greg, that I am looking forward to the workshop.  One of the things I
>want to learn is this use of tube watercolor and pigments.

You sure have come the right guy.  When you leave you will have lots of
knowledge about watercolours and the remaining thing is for you to put it
to practice.....

Graham

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From: "Jean D Parus" <ltz797@dreamscape.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:07:41 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3641] more baren questions 

After reading what Shireen asked and Dave's I was very interested since I am
getting ready to get a decent baren also .... I was a little discouraged
after looking at a site where it seemed as if the price for a professional
one when converted from yen ran about 600 dollars( maybe I coverted wrong?)
... I was really confused as to what grade I needed to start with, what size
etc ...Meanwhile, Dave, what is your opinion of the McClain's catalog stuff
... they seem to have a whole range .... I don't speak Japanese or I would
be mailing over there as per the interesting sites listed in the ency ...
maybe there is no way around finding a translator ....

 Jean D Parus

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From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:51:37 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3642] Simple and complex 

   39. The Titanic was found? I thought we always knew where it was.

Julio, I love it! Your list made me feel VERY OLD indeed! Why I remember
when McDonald's sold...how many, 6,000? This could start a whole new line
for Grahm: You know you're really old when...

And David S, I appreciate your appreciation of hanga woodcut for its
environmental gentleness...just what I meant to say when I said "no press,
no solvents." It never ceases to amaze me how simple the ingredients are,
and how complex the skill required to use them.

April Vollmer

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:40:50 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3643] Ink, paper, baren question 

Shireen
>Now I have a question about using a baren. I have a student grade baren
>from Daniel Smith........................................ I was wondering
>whether the
>problem was the baren itself or perhaps the fact that I was using oil based
>inks. 

It is hard to evaluate your problem except in general terms.  There may be
someone out there that uses oil base ink on dampened Indian paper.   The
factor problems becomes exponential every time you change to something just
slightly different.  You have three factors. Ink, paper and student grade
baren.  No tellin' what happens with these variables.

I know very little about the oil based ink thingie....and would need to
experiment.
Having never seen or handled the Indian paper to know how it reacts.
However on the subject of the baren.  I gather it is the unit with the
vacuum form piece of plastic and a wooden disc. The plastic has a pebble
surface....right. I have one and use is very very few times. Only good for
doing an area where extremely soft pressure is required, to get a lot of
texture in the tranfer of the waterbase inks.

Using oil base pigments requires a lot of firm pressure to get the
transfer. Your baren is very soft and mushy with no, (I call snap), when
you burnish. It could be the problem.

Not much help but you are in an area that may require a lot of personal
experimenting to solve the problems. That in itself is healthy.
Experimenting is the FUN PART OF THE FUN.

Regards,

Graham

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From: "Jean D Parus" <ltz797@dreamscape.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:45:31 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3644] Rosetta stone of woodblock

The Baren encyclopedia is deep and wide, and I look at only some small
portion each day and then go try it ... so with looking at many marvelous
things, it was only just yesterday that I looked at the pictures in
Woodblock Dreams .... they are totally amazing ... did everyone look at this
yet??!!! I want to press on the blue link at the bottom of the pages so I
can send a thank you to the publisher ... I just literally am so blown away
by the carving that I can't quite think of what words to use ... I guess I
think it must just be like finding the Rosetta stone ... right, Dave?

Jean D Parus 

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:52:38 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3645] Re: Water based pigments overprinting 

 Marco wrote....
>I am producing my own inks mixing dry pigment, water, methyl cellulose
>and a dab of gum arabic.

Come to the workshop......Ops that was'nt gentlemanly.... Just kidding.....

Almost have to see it to respond.
Would like know what paper you are using.

Let me drop some thoughts about the problem.

1. Mixing the powder pigment to thick and pasty and applying it to heavily
on the plate.

2. Not enough binder, gum arabic, to hold the pigment together

3 Did you dampen the paper so the pigment can penetrate the surface and
hold on.

4. If you burnish on two thin layers of colour this will cover better and
more evenly.
Most of my colours are done twice to assure better coverage.

What are you trying to achieve by adding Methyl cellulose?

  Graham

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:54:26 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3646] Re: press vs baren, and baren question

Shireen
Yesterday I printed the key block as the last color in my woodblock print.
It was using Daniel Smith black woodblock ink {thanks to the info from our
Baren friends out there}. I was using the light weight Rives paper. I used a
{dare I mention the word?} Speedball baren at the first rubbing and then to
be sure,

 I used a disc baren, the one with the nubby protrusions. I completed the 35
keyblocks in 4 hours.
I also had to peek a couple of times to be sure the ink was coming t
through ok.

I had soaked my paper pretty good and had it ready between the blotters.
Perhaps your paper was not damp enough. I find no problem with printing with
a baren and oil based inks.

THere is something magic about using a baren. It is a thrill to see each
print as it is finished.  It reminds me of firing a piece of ceramics. You
never know what it will be like until it is fired and out of the kiln.  OK,
now I have done it!   Please let us not talk about ceramics now.

Jeanne

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:12:07 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3647] Re:  baren question

Dear Dave
Whoops!  I guess I used a bad word when I mentioned Daniel Smith.
After your bad experience, I do not blame you for their mistreatment of your
visit to their store, factory, whatever.
I have a Dick Blick catalog, a Daniel Smith catalog, and a Cheap Joe's
catalog.  I thought the Smith looked the best, so have been ordering from
them.  Any other good suggestions as to good barens, and other printmaking
materials ?
At this stage it would be appreciated. There are many references in
Printmaking books but would like to have someone suggest the good ones.
Yes, there is a catalog called Cheap Joe's.

Waiting your replies

Jeanne

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From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:22:31 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3648] Re: press vs baren, and baren question 

Shireen wrote:
> All members increase their knowledge, experience
> and expertise by learning from each other.

well said, shireen.  i, too, have a question about using the baren.  i was
trying to use some gouache and a baren to print, and i was having a great deal
of trouble.  when i put more gouache on, it smeared and squished, and when i
tried to put less on, it was light and spotty.  what is the right amount, and
what type of motion should i use when rubbing it?  also, is rives bfk too thick
of a paper for hand printing?  i sense it may be, but i tried some kitikata
also and had the same bad luck.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:25:26 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3649] Re: more baren questions 

Jean wrote....
>After reading what Shireen asked and Dave's I was very interested since I am
>getting ready to get a decent baren also .... I was a little discouraged
>after looking at a site where it seemed as if the price for a professional
>one when converted from yen ran about 600 dollars( maybe I coverted wrong?)

No Jean you got the conversion right.   If it makes you feel any better the
same thing here would cost me $1000.00 big ones.

What this world need a baren that is workable, not made of vacuum form
plastic, but something that simulates the real thing and one can make
themselves.
Dream on Graham......

Regards,

Graham

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From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:26:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3650] Re:  baren question 

where would you recommend i buy a baren via mail order?  i just realized that
i must have one of the shitty student grade barens from daniel smith, although
i did pick one that was a little more expensive thinking it would be a little
better.

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End of Baren Digest V6 #495
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