[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Saturday, 27 February 1999     Volume 06 : Number 464

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:21:11 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3255] Re: 3 questions 

Greg
I do not do watercolors so cannot help you there, but you really struck a
nerve {a nice one}, when you mentioned the strength of the black and white
key block. Every time I do a block print {in oil}, the black and white is ,
in my mind , outstanding and I struggle with the idea of just making the
black and white edition.  Then the whole Edition problem rears its ugly head
and I go for the color instead.
I would really love to make a black and white edition and then run the
colored edition.
Do not know if you were with us when we ranted and raved about editioning.
It has been and still is a problem with me.
Dave says do as many as you like , others {shall I say who?}, say that small
editions are proper.
Here I go again, and I promised I would not ever mention editioning again.
Just goes to show that you cannot trust a Swede!!!! {that's me}
Well, I just ran a very nice key block which stands on it's own and I still
want to run a colored edition, here I go again.

Jeanne

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:35:10 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3256] Re: Baren Digest V6 #463 

Sarah said, regarding preparation of the application brush

> First you singe the brush by putting it face down in a hot pan or pie plate
> (that you don't use for food anymore!) - I do this on the fire escape on a hot
> plate so it doesn't stink up my apartment - then you wet the brush and brush
> it back & forth on the dragonskin - the whole brush gets brushed back & forth
> - - and continue to dip the brush in water from time to time as you do the
> brushing -

Thanks, Sarah.  This really helps.  Maybe I can do that 
today because I'm the only one here, so it won't bother 
anybody but me.  I'd better wear my mask, though.  I 
have a feeling this process could get asthma started.

* * * *
Daniel, regarding pigments, you mentioned
> As for my work I personally use the dye pastes you and David Bull mentioned.  (Kremer Pigments)

Is this for your woodblock prints?  Are these pepared when you
buy them?  You don't mix them with anything except water
when you are ready to work?  Do they sell from a catalog?  
I'm assuming they do because you don't live in New York.

So, Daniel, what range of colors do you recommend?  Same
as Dave, except for the Cadmium Red Light in place of Vermillion?

Gayle

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:37:18 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3257] Re: Winsor Red

What a surprise!
I have been using Winsor Newton oils for more years than I care to remember.
My oil paintings have stood the test of time. All colors have been lasting
and they look as fresh and lovely as the day that I applied them to canvas!
Teaching painting for 28 years in art school, I have always insisted that my
students use only the best and the Winsor Newton brand has never failed to
be exactly that.
I sound like their saleman, but had to put my 3 cents worth in.

Jeanne

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:29:28 EST
Subject: [Baren 3258] Re: Emily Carr 

Elizabeth wrote:
>Thanks, Sarah, for the first-hand explanation of the ballbearing baren and
> David for prompting me to look at the ency. The bb baren sounds like
> something I'd like to try. Do you have a source? 

I just ordered one from McClain's - they're a bit pricey (about $200)- I don't
know if anyone else knows a less expensive source --

Sarah

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From: Cucamongie@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:37:18 EST
Subject: [Baren 3259] Re: Winsor Red, etc 

There's a great book which April recommended to me and that I have found very
helpful - "The Wilcox Guide to the Best Watercolor Paints" - it evaluates
lightfastness, etc. of pure pigments and of brand names like Winsor Newton -
as for powdered pigments, I don't use them because I am extremely sensitive to
dust, chemicals, etc. but I buy the pure pigments dispersed in water (which is
less hazardous) from Guerra in NYC.  Also, there's a woman named Susan Rostow
who I took a workshop from last year in NY who has developed her own water-
based inks which I tried recently and have found to be great!  They were
originally developed for monotypes, etc but April & I have tried them for
woodblock printing and have found them to work well.  Susan's email address
is: wb-inks@worldnet.att.net for anyone interested.
regards

Sarah

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:48:06 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3260] Re: 3 questions \

>Do not know if you were with us when we ranted and raved about editioning.

Jeanne

I always have and will continue to take the position that it is up to the
artist to decide how many to print, if they want editions or not, etc.,
etc., etc.  You do what YOU feel is best for Jeanne and to hell with the
others.  The editions discussion is, and was, a good philosophical exercise
and no more.  No one's mind was changed.

Cheers
Ray

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From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:44:09 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3261] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #463

Graham,
I got the resawn (or "busted") basswood boards yesterday and they look
great, except they were not planed.  I guess that would have cost more.  I
suppose it will be possible for me to sand them smooth with my little power
hand sander.  Basswood is so wonderful and soft.  It should not take much
time, I hope.

Jean Eger

(That's Jean E., to the Jean connoisseurs)

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From: "Jean Eger" <jeaneger@LanMinds.Com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:27:53 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3262] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #463

Dear Baren Friends,
I have placed a new image on my home page.  It is a new small woodblock
print done with the traditional Japanese rice-paste and pigment method.
Please feel free to offer opinions and suggestions.
Sincerely,
JeanE
http://users.lanminds.com/~jeaneger

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:30:43 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3263] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #463 

Jean wrote:
>I got the resawn (or "busted") basswood boards yesterday and they look
>great, except they were not planed.  I guess that would have cost more.  I
>suppose it will be possible for me to sand them smooth with my little power
>hand sander.  Basswood is so wonderful and soft.  It should not take much
>time, I hope.

That is a shame that they weren't plained.  For the price they should have
been.  Don't go back there again.  In you spare time go and get three
prices then you will know next time.

As to sanding the boards smooth..... A lot depends on the sander you have.
If it is a palm sander it will do the job but take quite some time.

If it is a random orbital sander it will do the job lickty split.

Actually you should have both to do the job real nicely.

Start with (either sander) a 60 or 80 grit paper.
When all the rough stuff is removed go the a 120 then to a 220 then to a
320 or 400 to 600 and by golly the surface will be like a baby bum.

I use the randam orbital to the 220 grit stage and then finish off with the
finer papers.
Tip......press firmly when using the 600 grit. seems to cause a harder
finish. Maybe my imagination but it works for me.

Plan carefully and have fun.

Cheers

Graham

PS  "Busted" that sound manly and macho doesn't it... I can just vision the
guy that said this to you.....he wares a big red hard hat...right.    The
term is "resawn"

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:17:21 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3264] Re: Winsor Red 

Daniel wrote....
>Ralph Meyer in The Artist's Handbook
>such as the well know lakes and other fugitives.

it is an informative book well worth having or at least getting it from the
Library.
Lakes have always been a problem are others that care well defined by WN

>Haven't you noticed it bleed through the paper in your prints?

Nope I don't use watercolour pigments (WN) for prints.

>So why defend it?

I'm defending the manufactures name that produces excellent product of
watercolour painting. Use it for printing is not what it was intended for.
You use it at your own risk.

>There are plenty of makers out there. As for the costs I find the price
>of paint, whatever kind, not to be a significant part of the sales price.

How did this get into the discussion. We weren't taking about price
relationship to end product.

>I also know Golden sells some low quality paints for hobby folks

Almost all manufactures have a professional series and an student series.

>Winsor sells all kinds of pigments including cadmium.

Ya this is common knowledge......

>. Personally I like thalo greens and blues to work with. The Winsor
>red is probably (me to, I can't spell) qinacridone or napthol. No?

NO.....
You have forced me to dig out the specification on pigments.
Quinacridones, organic pigments first produced in 1958 Transparent colours
of outstanding fastness to light, even in pale tints. It is used in
Permanent Magenta and Permanent Rose. (my favourite)

I stand corrected about Windor Red....It is Winsor Green that is derived
from Chlorinated copper phthalocyanine.  Red Green what the hell.... easy
mistake if your colour blind.....(<:

Windor Red is an anthanthrone pigment...... Say that fast....
That is enough of this crap...... CYA

>Do you not like Daniel Smith's watercolors. He claims they are permanent.

Never used them.

>As for my work I personally use the dye pastes you and David Bull mentioned.

So how the hell did we get into all this long blah blah blah about WN?????

Have a good day

Graham

PS  THE END....

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:24:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3265] Wares or Wears...... 

Hmmm....
>he wares a big red hard hat...right.

He also wears that hat.......

sorry for the typo.

Graham

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From: James G Mundie <jimandkatemundie@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:58:52 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3266] more on tube pigments 

Yes, Winsor Red is a tricky little colour.  Isn't it one of those that is
available in only one series number? [for the unitiated, Winsor Newton
sells paints of varying qualities; allegedly, the higher the series
number the better the pigment and the higher the price]  I often wondered
if Winsor Red was a lake...

However, one company that I will stand behind is Holbein.  They make
wonderful tube colours.  Their oil paints are pure pigment and linseed
oil without any other junk to get in the way.  Lovely watercolors and
gauches, too. Amazing tinting strength, great light-fastness so far as
I've experienced.
Gamblin has always left me rather underwhelmed.
 
As has been mentioned, though, these pre-prepared tubes will be rather
expensive for woodblock printing.  Powdered pigments are relatively
inexpensive and will last quite a long while.  

For many years there was a little man here in Philadelphia who ran an art
supply business out of his house.  He had simply everything and anything
you could want, and if he liked you he would cut you a great deal.  A
friend of mine once picked up a pound each of burnt sienna and
ultramarine blue for seven bucks. Another woman who only wanted tiny
little portions for egg tempera painting paid three times that for a
couple of ounces.  I suspect he was annoyed that she put him to the
trouble of digging out such a piddling amount of pigment and priced her
for the bother. 

James Mundie, Philadelphia USA  

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From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:56:53 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3267] Re: more on tube pigments 

James wrote:
> For many years there was a little man here in Philadelphia who ran an art
> supply business out of his house.

where is that man now?

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From: agatha <agatha@uswest.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:54:27 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3268] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #463 

Jean Eger wrote:
> I have placed a new image on my home page. 

that is a beautiful print.  you seem to have mastered that technique, all
right.  your web page is great.  i esp liked the monoprints by alice fong.
hi all, i am the newest baren member.  i hope i'm not out of my league
here, it sounds as though you all have tons of experience.  nice to meet
you all.

i have a question for you all.  you may have discussed this before, but i
was not around.  my question is about the use of a dremmel tool in
woodcuts.  from my experience, some consider it cheating, some do not.  i
am curious on all of your views on this subject.  i will withhold mine till
later in the interest of being impartial, which you will all soon find out
is difficult for me.

also, any recommendations for a nice set of tools that is under say, eighty
dollars?  i bought some cheapo tools recently and they really suck.

thanks.

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From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:10:52 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3269] color/colour 

Gregory, now you've done it! Opened a huge knotty question! We could go on
a while about this one! Color is THE thing that convinced me hanga printing
is the way to go. You have so much choice, using watercolor or pigments.
Grahm mentioned a book...I must look up. But I have another to recommend:
The Wilcox Guide to the Best Watercolor Paints by Michael Wilcox, Colour
School Publications, London 1991 and his newer publiction How to Select
Pigments...(something like that). It talks specifically about the chemistry
of pigments, how they are named, and mis-named, their history, and
describes in detail their lightfastness, transparency, and hue.

I think Dave is using the traditional Japanese palette, which I suppose we
can't complain about, since so much great art has been made that way.
However,Vermillion is not lightfast, and is recommended AGAINST by several
authorities. And Indigo the same. I suppose the optimal light conditions he
describes, that gentle sideways light, wouldn't effect those colors so
much. But those barbarians from the US are likley to put up prints in
DIRECT SUNLIGHT don't you think?

I use pigments, a palette of 8 to 10 colors is more than enough. I would
recommend pigment suspensions, already ground in water, so you don't
breathe the dust, which can be pretty poisonous! Pigment will generally
give stronger color than watercolor. My palette might be hansa yellow,
arylide yellow, cobalt blue, pthalo blue, quin gold, quin violet, cadmium
red. But then I'm not such an organized person, and it changes from time to
time. It's nice to have a greenish yellow AND an orangish yellow, and it's
also nice to be able to control the OPACITY of a color. (Cad red is opaque,
quin red is more transparent, adding calcium carbonate will increase
opacity.)

My question is about BINDER. I do add gum arabic to my pigment suspensions
to make sure it sticks. Anybody have an opinion about this?

April Vollmer

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From: April Vollmer/John Yamaguchi <jy6@columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:28:01 -0400
Subject: [Baren 3270] Re: Baren Digest V6 #461 

I havn't been keeping up with my mail, so I'm responding to a week's worth
of postings!

Rough lines and crude cutting can look great in waterbase! Have you seen
Munakata's work? It is similar to the German expressionists in the cutting,
though my favorites are sort of nature godesses, more Japanese in theme.
And they are black and white.

Registration only becomes a problem if you don't use good paper. I'm sure
you oil base printers are wary of paper stretching because you see how much
cotton paper changes size. Washi, Japanese kozo fiber paper, doesn't change
size nearly as much.

BALL BEARING BARENS: Elizabeth, and other BB inquiries: It is a little
bigger than the regular hon baren, with an array of ball bearings set in an
aluminum screen. The back is laquered black, with a twisted leather handle.
There are two "strengths" one with ball bearings farther apart for larger
areas and stronger pressure, and one with bb's closer together for smaller
areas and less pressure. They also come with a baffle, so they don't
rattle. (Unnecessary, it's a cool noise!) McClain's 1-800-832-4264 has them.

SINGING HORSEHAIR BRUSHES, my tip is to singe them on a flat surface, I use
the bottom of a cast iron skillet. That way they are singed evenly all
over. (you can tell when it's done by how BAD it smells!) Next time I'll
try soaking the brush for hours, in the past I've only dampened them. I
don't know where you can get real sharkskin in the US, but evidently the
barbs are CURVED, so it catches the bristles better than the straight barbs
of synthetic metal dragonskin.

Andrea, You are the master of the reduction cut! Your system of reducing
color FAMILIES on separate blocks also works in waterbase, I have done it a
couple of times. I was interested to read your description of layering in
oil base, reducing the pressure for subsequent layers to avoid buildup. One
of the advantages of hanga is that you can continue to build up layers of
color that will easily blend in with previous colors.

April Vollmer

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:59:57 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3271] Re:   Baren Digest V6 #463

Jeanwrote:
>I have placed a new image on my home page.  
Jean

What a wonderful print.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

Cheers
Ray

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From: Gregory Robison <grobison@swiftuganda.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:11:21 +0300
Subject: [Baren 3272] Re: Winsor Red 

Kampala, 27 February 1999

Daniel Kelly wrote:

>...true vermillion is an unstable form of mecuric sulphide which may turn black 

mercuric sulphide has actually proven to be very stable (there are lots of
examples of its use in East and West from many centuries back in which the
color value and brilliance seems to be perfectly preserved), except when
exposed to direct sunlight.  But that's a problem with lots of pigments,
whether organic or inorganic, natural or synthetic.  (Another argument for
Dave's Doctrine: No Prints On the Wall!)   

>I like it when makers use names like Cadmium and other inert metals. Don't you?

I do, too, but it's interesting that the most stable pigment is probably
good ol' carbon black, an organic product and not an inert metal.  It is
said to be unaffected by the three horsemen of the apocalypse: light, heat
and moisture.  (Good news for GV and the rest of the B&W crowd: the paper'll
turn to dust before the image will fade, even if you leave it out on the
patio in Miami.)

>Regarding permanence its a good idea to do your own tests as I have found
>the ratings of the sellers unreliable. This is especially true of Winsor
>Newton whose pigment names and permanence cannot be trusted.

To be fair to W&N, they don't claim that their Winsor Red is in their most
permanent category.  They call it "durable -- generally sold as permanent."
But I agree that that's a laughable category.  What do they mean "generally
sold as"?   To me it sounds like, "in the past we've generally gotten away
with selling this as permanent, but counsel has now advised us to call it
only 'durable'..."  Incidentally, they don't claim that their Cadmium Red is
more than 'durable' either.  On the matter of W&N's pigment names not being
reliable, I take it you mean that 'Winsor Blue' for example, masks the fact
that it's really what other manufacturer's would call phthalocyanine blue,
and so makes comparison harder.  I agree that this is annoying. On the other
hand, they do readily reveal what's in these pigments in the technical
sheets and, in some cases, it's not really possible to use the chemical name
because it's a mixture.  Winsor Emerald, for example, is some mix of
phthalocyanine green, two different kinds of arylamide yellow, and zinc
oxide.  They can't very well call it 'phthalocyaninebiarylamidezincoxide'...

>Do you not like Daniel Smith's watercolors. He claims they are permanent.

I know that Dan Smith makes a big deal about the permanence of his
proprietary line of watercolors (and oils), but I've always been a little
skeptical.  Smith is a great marketer (I started buying from him when he
mainly sold printing inks and manned the counter himself in his little place
on Nickerson Street along the Ship Canal in Seattle), and he has a slick
catalog.  He knows that a new generation of sophisticated, technically
curious artists are obsessed with the permanence issue, and he knows how to
pitch to them.  He may, of course, be right. His quinacridone colors are
said to come from years of research in the automotive industry, and some of
them are really lovely to work with.  Dan Smith produces some hues (like sap
green) which I never touched before because every other manufacturer always
admitted they were fugitive, but he rates as "extremely permanent."  If he's
right, he's done a real service.  But Daniel's got me thinking (Kelly, that
is, not Smith).  There's hay to be made by claiming permanence.  If we can't
trust conservative old Winsor & Newton, what does that mean for the savvy
marketers like Daniel Smith?  I'm favorably disposed to Dan Smith, having
bought so much stuff from him over the years and watching him grow... But I
guess we do have to test, and at 0.25 degrees north latitude, I'm really in
the place for it.  What do you do, Daniel (and Graham), just paint a swatch
and leave it on the roof for a fortnight?

Yours,
Greg (Robison)     

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End of Baren Digest V6 #464
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