[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Sunday, 21 February 1999 Volume 06 : Number 454 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:16:58 -0500 Subject: [Baren 3122] Re: Hello Welcome Michelle You will find this an informative and caring group of printmakers! Greg; Thanks, I was just going to post a question as the WHY sizing, if it is going to be washed off when it is soaked in water. If the sizing protects the paint from bleeding.what happens to it when soaked. Is it not then washed off? Someone mentioned that dumb questions were allowed, maybe this is one but it puzzles me. Question 2 ; If there are over 70 members now and more to come , what a print exchange we will have in the future. Dave's friend will have to make trunks for the portfolio exchange. No more questions. Back to work. Having a hard time sharpening my tools. I think I need to take "Tool Sharpening 101". Just a thought. Yes, I have read all the material on sharpening but still cannot get the hang of it!!! I have the blisters to prove it. Enough of this rambling. Welcome again Michelle, now you see what you are in for!!!! Jeanne ------------------------------ From: "Chris Bremmer" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:41:25 -0600 Subject: [Baren 3123] Ink and printing methods Hello to all.... I'm just curious, is there anyone in the group that uses regular waterbased or oilbased ink and rolls it on the block, and prints on dry paper? More like the "European method" from what I understand. The method mentioned in the Baren Encyclopedia sounds fascinating, mixing paste with pigment and brushing it on, and printing on special paper that has to be ordered in etc..... but a lot of these options are not available to me, mostly because of price and special ordering the materials. Just wondering, Chris ------------------------------ From: "Jean Eger" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:08 -0800 Subject: [Baren 3124] Re: Baren Digest V6 #453 Welcome Michelle, This is the promised land for woodblock printmakers. I suggest you try sizing your paper, as was suggested to me when I had the same bleeding problem. An easy size you can use is 1/8 oz alum, 1/4 oz gelatin (1 package unflavored gelatin), 35 oz boiling water, mix until dissolved. Paint size on paper warm, let dry, the recipe is in the Walter Phillips book, Chapter III, online at http://www.sharecom.ca/phillips/technique.html Sincerely, Jean Eger ------------------------------ From: Cucamongie@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:12:11 EST Subject: [Baren 3125] large "blank" areas hi all - I have a technical challenge (for me, at least!) with the current print I'm working on - the central figure of the print (a large dog! which takes up quite a lot of space in the print) I'm leaving uncolored - that is, the color of the paper. Any tips for keeping those little tricky spots and smudges from getting there by accident? I've tried a tip which I found in the Encyclopedia of putting rolled up paper in the large empty areas of the blocks but still it's hard to keep the area of the dog completely clean after printing four layers of background blocks which each get printed several times to deepen the color, plus the key block - any special hints from you experts out there?? Thanks and best regards, Sarah Hauser ------------------------------ From: ArtSpot@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:29:36 EST Subject: [Baren 3126] Re: large "blank" areas A small nuclear device perhaps would help keep the area clear? Wish I knew the answer. Am waiting to see what will be given... ArtSpot Out BA in studio ------------------------------ From: mkrieger@mb.sympatico.ca Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:49:48 -0600 Subject: [Baren 3127] Ink and printing methods I should list myself under those who use oilbased ink and print with a press - though I have acquired a taste for Oriental papers - They are not that different in price from European papers in my experience. The thinner but still extremely tough Oriental papers I found excellent for handprinting woodcuts with wooden spoon and burnisher for those times and occasions when a press is not available. I have two presses - a tabletop Griffin etching press and a large motorized press which can take a full 22 X 30 sheet with some room to spare. It has a handle with which you can apply or remove the pressure of the roller. This is helpful for printing woodcuts as you can start the roller at the very edge of the block and not worry about the block slipping around as it comes up to the roller. Unfortunately this one is in pieces at the moment. Nothing is seriously wrong so one day.... Mary Krieger Winnipeg Canada ------------------------------ From: mkrieger@mb.sympatico.ca Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:49:35 -0600 Subject: [Baren 3128] Paper + size + pigment + water Here's my two cents on the where does the pigment/sizing go questions. I find it helpful to remember that all paper is a web of tiny plant fibers held together both by their physical entanglement and electrostatic attraction (at least that's what I remember the instructor saying). The tiny spaces between the fibres allow paper to flex and compress. Sizing is gluey and coats each individual fibre. It is actually quite difficult to wash out once it is in. It alters the ability of the individual fibres to absorb water. (like fabric softener on your towels). Dry pigment applied to a paper surface adheres like the paper fibres by being caught in the microscopically uneven surface of the paper as well as that static attraction. (like dust and cat hair) Pigment suspended in water will penetrate more deeply into the microscopic structure of the paper. As the fibres soak up the water, the pigment is both caught in the holes between the fibres and stains the fibres themselves. Some of the pigment between the fibres can be rinsed away with sufficient water but the stain can only be bleached away. (like grape koolaid) Sizing will slow down the rate at which water is absorbed by the paper fibres. Watercolor paper is very heavily sized. This allows the painter to control how the pigment is absorbed by the paper primarily by the amount of water in the paint. The fibres are so heavily sized that they absorb the water very slowly and do not much affect how the pigment is absorbed by the paper. If the paper is already damp - that is the fibres themselves are moist but there is little or no water film in between - then I would guess that the pigment would move more slowly but would be absorbed by the paper more evenly. If moisture promotes the absorption of the pigment into the paper - and rice paste and size slow it down, then to get an even and repeatable penetration of the pigment into the paper you have to balance the amount of sizing and moisture in the paper with the amount of rice paste and water suspended pigment on the block. Prints on paper that is correctly sized and dampened will not bleed sideways or transfer color. That's the _amazing_ trick of the Japanese printing technology. Mary Krieger Winnipeg Manitoba ------------------------------ From: "Bea Gold" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:21:17 -0800 Subject: [Baren 3129] Ink and printing methods, Bea Gold I was using oil based ink and dry paper with no problems. I am a painter and wanted to experiment with water colors or water based ink and palate knife under my print and wanted to use water based ink. When I switched the paper stuck to the block so now I'm looking at sized paper. I have always used a wooden or silver spoon to print until switching to water based. Now I'm looking to a press or baren. ------------------------------ From: Gregory Robison Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:24:18 +0300 Subject: [Baren 3130] Re: Baren Digest V6 #452 Kampala, 20 February 1999 Gayle wrote: >So give us a rundown on the procedure. I have a Vandercook Proofing >Press in my basement Gayle: I would love to talk to you about your Vandy, but I'm afraid to do so in this venue would violate the terms of my parole. (I've got a few Off-Topic Violations on my record.) May I suggest we repair to our Club (BA5) and discuss this over a drink on the veranda? See you there. Greg PS: Other Barens people with an interest in using presses in connection with woodblock printing might like to join us over there on the other channel... ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:45:48 -0800 Subject: [Baren 3131] Re: large "blank" areas Sarah wrote.... >the central figure of the print (a large dog! which >takes up quite a lot of space in the print) I'm leaving uncolored - that is, >the color of the paper. Any tips for keeping those little tricky spots and >smudges from getting there by accident? The tip in the Encyclopedia is the answer. When I know that I am going to have an expansive area on the plate I always leave a bridge support of wood in the centre of the area. The paper works fine however. I also sandpaper the edge of the support so that is smooth and if you happen to burnish over the support you will not get a rigid debossed line. This is were the paper bridge is better. Keep thingies clean by careful plate cleaning is vitally important...... It is tough as you tend to concentrate on the inking and laying of paper and neglect the cleaning ofthe blank areas. Oh and Stay focused. Regards, Graham ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:30:25 -0500 Subject: [Baren 3132] Re: Ink and printing methods Chris I work with oil based inks, roll the ink on the block and then proceed to work with my disc baren. I do not dampen the paper. Works for me! Then I hang them up to dry while waiting for the next block of color. >From what I see on the many excellent Web pages, thereir is something very magic in the water color woodcuts. My next woodcut is going to be with watercolor, although I feel very safe with my oil based inks. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!!! That is'nt to say that oil based woodcuts go begging, just look at Andreas Web Page. She is a real expert at oil based woodcuts. Jeanne ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:33:06 -0500 Subject: [Baren 3133] Re: large "blank" areas Sarah GOOD question. i am waiting for the answer to that one myself????? Jeanne ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:46:08 -0500 Subject: [Baren 3134] Re: Paper + size + pigment + water Mary The answer to why sizing was an answer in a nutshell, a BIG nutshell. Now I know all I ever want to know about sizing. Seriously, thanks for what I thought was my dumb question. But if you do not ask, you do not get. Now I am still waiting for the answer to Sarahs question about the big, blank space!!! Jeanne ------------------------------ From: "Jeanne N. Chase" Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:51:22 -0500 Subject: [Baren 3135] Re: large "blank" areas Graham Thanks , I was waiting for a word from the wise and you delivered as usual. I had better reread that Encylopedia over again. Jeanne ------------------------------ From: amoss@mindspring.com (JOHN AMOSS) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:55:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Baren 3136] dampening paper On dampening paper: I was puzzled by the ability of damp paper to more readily absorb pigment than a dry sheet. I tried to use an old bone-dry sponge recently to clean up a spill and (doink!)- it hit me: I realized something that many of you already know: that paper is basically a sponge. You have to dampen it first before it will pick up a decent amount of liquid. Also, as in a hard n' dry sponge, dry paper won't lay properly on the block because the surface is not softened to "give" enough to make decent contact with the plate/block. After dampening the paper, it allowing the surface texture of the paper to compress, and thereby maximizing contact. I imagine the damp woodblock acts likewise, although to a lesser degree. Just one of those everyday observations that intrigues my simple mind and makes me appreciate the Japanese understanding of how natural things interact. - -John ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:35:59 +0900 Subject: [Baren 3137] Spots, ... Sarah asked: > the central figure of the print (a large dog! which > takes up quite a lot of space in the print) I'm leaving uncolored - that is, > the color of the paper. Any tips for keeping those little tricky spots and > smudges from getting there by accident? ... and a bunch of answers are already in. May I add my 2 cents? - - If the area really takes up 'quite a lot of space', then there is no need to rub the pigment brush in that place. Keep your brush just over the image areas ... - - if the small roll of paper (or the retained wood, as per Graham's point) aren't solving the problem, then I would suspect that you are perhaps not keeping the baren strictly horizontal when you move it. If you let it tilt up on one side or the other, the chance of banging the paper and creating these blotches is greatly increased. - - if you see the same blotch again and again in the _same_ place, then this is an indication of a carving problem, not a printing problem. Get the chisels out and scoop that spot lower ... if the blotches are in different places each time, this points to baren technique. - - if the baren is not tied tightly enough, folds of the sheath can sometimes project down a little bit, and these will _always_ cause problems with such blots. It only takes a couple of millimetres ... *** Mary wrote: > Here's my two cents on the where does the pigment/sizing go questions. http://www.woodblock.com (Click on the 'new' button in the top left corner) *** Greg wrote: > Gayle: I would love to talk to you about your Vandy, but I'm afraid to do so > in this venue would violate the terms of my parole. (I've got a few > Off-Topic Violations on my record.) May I suggest we repair to our Club > (BA5) and discuss this over a drink on the veranda? This insinuation - that 'somebody' has been sending Greg messages suggesting that he 'stick to the point' - is completely untrue. ;-) I send out my 'Violations' when people are not polite enough to each other, or to sometimes remind them to trim their quotes, etc., but unless my memory fails me, Greg still has a clean 'rap sheet'. To clarify on this point of 'presses vs barens': Lots of [Baren] members use a baren. Lots of [Baren] members use a press. Lots of [Baren] members use _both_ press and baren. Even hard-core baren-types like Graham have shown interest in a press. So I don't think that talking about how you can use your 'Vandy' to make woodblock prints is 'off-topic'. If it turned out that such discussions were mostly about 'letterpress' issues, then I guess they should take place over on one of the letterpress forums. Maybe at some future point, we may have to split off the two groups - hand printers and press printers - but I think we're a long way from that yet. > PS: Other Baren people with an interest in using presses in connection > with woodblock printing might like to join us over there on the other > channel... 'with woodblock printing' - those are the key words. Keep to that, and the postings are welcome right here. Dave ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:04:57 -0600 Subject: [Baren 3138] Re: large "blank" areas Regarding the big blank dog area: To add to Grahams suggestion; one thing I have tried that worked very well was using a paper mask to cover the area in question. In my case I was printing in the center but getting smudges on the outside perimeter. I cut out a series of paper masks for each of my blocks so that only the printable area would show thru the paper mask...the mask is attached to the block with scotch tape on one edge only. Before I brush on the pigment I lift up the mask so the spluttering with the brush won't deposit any pigment on the paper mask. When I am done I simply let the paper fall back unto the block and presto....only color on the wanted areas.....I then position the paper in the kento marks and proceed as usual. If my baren misses and strays unto the blank area I don't care because the paper mask is there. If I happen to get some paint on my mask is an easy task to just make another.....in your case, the mask would be in the shape of the dog area and you would lay it down after adding color to your printable area.....you can give credit for this tip to Dave Bull who once again came to my rescue during the exchange saga.... JULIO {:-) ------------------------------ From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:37:15 -0600 Subject: [Baren 3139] Re: large "blank" areas One more thing..... I said the mask would be in the shape of the dog..I don't think that's right....I don't think this would work for this scenario. If you just mask out everything BUT the area being printed, you'll avoid smudges on your dog and everywhere else anyways.....so I guess what I am saying is make the mask to cover everything but the printable area on that particular block, then go ahead and splatter with your brush to your heart desire....when you drop the mask down, only the printable area will portrude thru the paper and regardless of what a mess you made below with your brush you will not get any spots on your print. I used normal computer print paper for my masks...you probably don't want something very absorbant or the pigment could still print thru your mask if you press or slip with your baren hard enough....the trick is to be able to lift the mask up & down each time you apply color to your block....it's kind a like wearing an apron! JULIO {:-) ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V6 #454 ***************************