[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest            Wednesday, 10 February 1999    Volume 06 : Number 443

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:00:36 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3013] Mmmmm, good! 

Good meaty posts coming through recently!  So much stuff to answer!

Greg wrote on barens:
> ...may be one of those simple-looking things that actually 
> takes a ten-year apprenticeship to learn how to do properly...
> Are there descriptions or tips published someplace on making them?

The Encyclopedia description of how to tie a baren is probably going to
be the absolute final entry I write, for a couple of reasons.  One is
that it is almost certainly going to take me quite a number of years
before I myself get it 'right', but another is the essential futility of
writing such a description.  Yes, I suppose I could write something, and
could put some pictures of Gosho-san's hands while he 'ties one on', but
I doubt very much that such things would really be of any use.

One's skill at baren tying is totally inseparable from one's general
level of ability as a printmaker.  It is impossible, I feel, to be good
at tying the baren, but yet be a poor printer ... and the reverse is
just as true.  The only way to learn how to tie a baren well, is to make
prints ... hundreds and hundreds and thousands of prints.  Gradually, as
you work through this vast pile of paper, you start to understand things
like just why it is that the skin has to be stretched _this_ way at that
corner, instead of _that_ way.  You learn just how the black stone has
to be rubbed in _that_ direction instead of _this_ direction.  Etc.
etc.  Such things can neither be taught nor shown.

Yes, they could be 'shown', in video, picture or words - but without the
underlying understanding of _why_, such illustration is meaningless. 
Julio mentioned something of this the other day when he talked about
re-reading the one-point lessons, and seeing things that he hadn't
understood the first time through.

Does this all sound ridiculously 'mystical'?  If I really believe this,
then what's the point of [Baren]?  Well, of course I believe in
teaching, and I believe in experienced people passing on knowledge; if I
didn't, I wouldn't be sitting here at this keyboard tonight.  But it
just seems to me that there are some aspects of this that seem
inevitably to remain a sort of 'personal struggle' - and baren-tying
seems very much that sort of thing to me.

Baren tying is the ultimate test of a woodblock printmaker (speaking of
the Japanese type of printmaking, of course ...).  I have yet to 'pass'
that test, something I am not particularly proud of, considering that I
have been at this craft for nearly twenty years.  Now if I had an
apprentice here, boy he'd be tying his baren a dozen times daily until
his fingers were raw!  _And_ I wouldn't let him anywhere near colour
pigments until maybe a year or so had passed.  He'd learn how to print
with just sumi first; if you can handle _that_ stuff, the colours would
be easy ...  (Listen to this guy!  Why doesn't he practice this sort of
discipline on _himself_!)


I guess I'm not being particularly helpful, am I.  Tell you what, I've
got a new 16-strand baren on order with Gosho-san, and when he calls me
up in a month or so to say that it's ready, I'll ask him if I can come
over and watch him tie a new skin on, and take a bunch of photos with my
nifty camera.  I can put up some kind of basic page with a description
of the process ...  _Your_ twenty-year struggle can then begin ...

***

Now let's see, what was the next quote I wanted to reply to ...

But this is already too long ...

Dave


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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:08:10 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3014] One more ... 

Greg also wrote:
> a generic description of what makes wood ideal for hanga blocks.
> What is it about cherry, and about the particular variety, that 
> makes it good?  I'm thinking of observable features such as cell 
> or fiber density, maybe weight per board foot or cubic meter when 
> dried to 18% or whatever...

This is a goodie!  Have you seen that bit in the Tokuno book in the
Encyclopedia, where the editor says (about the printing paper):
> Experiment has shown the amount of moisture in this case 
> to be 13.86 per cent.

What he _should_ have said was:
'At one particular moment in time, on one particular sheet of paper,
during the printing of one particular image, on a day of a particular
type of weather, with a craftsman using a particular type of baren ...
the moisture was 13.86%'    This guy had his head so deeply buried in his
attempt to analyze the phenomenon he was observing, that he didn't
notice that the important thing was the 'experienced judgement of the
printer'.

Greg, don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to ridicule you.  Your
point about _observable_ features is an excellent one.  I too, am very
much torn between the two ways to think about this - the analytical
scientific approach, and the ... 'experienced judgement' approach.  

This is not some abstract point - I spent a day in the woodyards at Kiba
the other week in a search for good cherry boards.  The guys there
pulled out board after board after board for my inspection.  I looked at
each one - "Hmmm, this one sort of looks OK.  Nope, not that one ..."

'What are you looking for?' they asked.  'Describe it to us, and we'll
get it for you!'

But I couldn't.  I simply don't have enough experience in selecting raw
wood to know what was good and what was bad.  I've always left it up to
Shimano-san, but now that he's gone, here I am, trying to quantify just
those points that Greg made ... density, etc. etc.   And I'm lost.

So should I try and get some of this stuff organized 'scientifically'? 
I've got some very nice blocks in storage here; if I had them weighed,
poked, prodded, microscoped, flexed ... would the information actually
be of any use, any value, to anybody?  Showing the guys at the woodyard
a ready-to-carve blank block (I took one with me), didn't help in the
slightest when it came to selecting tree trunks.  Simply none of us had
the _experience_ of turning a tree into a woodblock.  And without that
experience, I wonder if any amount of measuring would help us?

What do you think - _is_ there any room for the scientific method in a
craft like this?  (You want a good argument sometime?  Ask a violin
maker that question!)

***

Now let's see, what was the next quote I wanted to reply to ...

But this one too, is already too long ...

Do I dare ...?

Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:34:11 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3015] Well, just _one_ more ... 

Greg also wrote:
> At some point I would like to broach the subject of synthetic 
> substitutes for increasingly scarce natural carving media. 

> This is a topic with potentially very broad implications, 

You bet!

>On the other hand, we're already happily substituting methyl 
>cellulose for rice paste, kitchen parchment for bamboo sheathing...

Oh no 'we' aren't!

'Very broad implications' is an understatement!  You are talking about
defining just 'who I am', and the meaning of my life, and this
seems to me to be a point worth investigating ...


Let me try and organize my thoughts on this (and please remember, I'm
speaking here of my own world - Japanese traditional printmaking.  This
may or may not apply to whatever you others are involved in ...):

Point - a well-established tradition of woodblock printmaking flourished
here for many years.

Point - it was totally integrated into society, providing services that
were needed, and was thus able to survive both economically and
culturally.

Point - during that period, it was not only completely open to
technological advances, it thrived on them.  New artists, new themes,
new techniques of printing and carving ... always 'new'  'new'  'new'.

Point - a 'rather' large change took place in society, with the opening
up to the west.  Printing presses arrived, and were eagerly snatched up
by publishers and printing companies.  From their point of view, this
was just another one of those technological advances ...   The 'main
line' of printing went that way, and of course the advances continue to
this day ...

So far, so good.  Just a simple outline of a bit of history.  No
contradictions, no philosophical problems, nothing strange at all.


Point - some people, very very few in number indeed, 'decided' to keep
working with the old methods.  Actually, 'decided' is not really the
correct word, these people were simply the ones who were left behind;
who were unable to keep up with the main social flow ...  They found
themselves off on a siding, while the main line rode off in another
direction.  These people found enough support though, scattered here and
there, to enable them to survive. 

Point - nearly a hundred years has passed, and a few of those people are
still at it, but general support from society has now become a lot more
difficult to find; as a matter of course, young people today have little
or no interest in these products. So they are now playing the
'tradition' card; they no longer make any pretense at being a normal
part of society, but take handouts from government, foundations, etc.,
all in the name of 'keeping the old traditions alive'.  

Again, so far, so good.  This sort of thing happens all the time -
people refusing to 'let go'.  Most societies seems to have guilty
feelings about these situations, and as long as the country has the
resources to spare, it will probably continue to support this sort of
thing.  Just as we have museums, so can we have a few of these guys
doing this 'old stuff'.


Point - enter David, who carries on his shoulder a large bundle - a
bundle of contradictions.  He carries no romantic ideals about
'traditions' at all - the presses are far more efficient, so of course
the old ways died.  Boy, aren't those old prints beautiful!  If one of
his assistants comes up with a better way to glue together the mats in
which he ships his prints - go for it!   Eh, use a router to gouge out
the waste wood from one of my blocks? Are you kidding?   That upgrade to
an ISDN line has meant that he can now upload Encyclopedia pages faster
faster faster ... and then get back into his workroom to sit on the
floor and do the background colour to this next print ...  one ... two
... three ... four ... five ... six ...  ...   ...   ... one hundred
ninety-nine ... two hundred ...   Contradictions, contradictions ...


I guess I'm getting a little bit away from Greg's point.  But maybe
not.  Simply put, for _me_, the entire point of what I do is to try and
see if I am personally capable of developing my skills to the level where
I can make prints as good as any that have ever been made.  Use the new
plastic blocks from DuPont?  I can't, even if they are better than
cherry.  I can't, _especially_ if they are better than cherry.  It would
negate my whole 'quest'.  For me to use better tools and materials than
those men of old used would negate everything that I have achieved so
far, and everything I achieved from here on.

Laugh you may, but that is my personal measure of 'success', to make
prints as good as theirs, of course using the same tools and materials.
And boy do I have some strikes against me; they had strict masters to
guide them - I have only casual contact with other workers; they had no
'distractions' - I have the entire world to distract me; they only
_carved_ (or printed) - I both carve and print ...   Any sane man would
realize that my mission is indeed mission impossible.  But you know
what?  I don't care.  I guess I'm a bit crazy about this, but I think
that I can do it.  It's going to take a while, but I think I can do it.


And as for 'maintaining traditions' I don't care the slightest if the
tradition survives.  If society doesn't care for it, then by definition
it _shouldn't_ survive. I am just completely and totally selfish - I
make woodblock prints because I _like_ making woodblock prints.  The
other 'goodies' are just side benefits: I make a living, make a bunch of
friends, lots of people say nice things about me, I get my mug shot in
the paper now and then, other printmakers seem to find some value in my
experiences, people coming to the exhibitions and buying my prints seem
to find some value in what they see ... 

But what did I just say - 'people coming to the exhibitions and buying
my prints seem to find some value in what they see'.  So does that mean
that society _does_ care for this?  The pile of subscription forms
sitting on my desk this month seems to say so. Could it be ... is it
possible ... that the train sitting on this isolated siding can actually
be pushed back onto the main line again?  Many times during the hundreds
of years of this tradition, the art/craft became moribund.  And each
time, through the efforts of some publisher or artist, it managed to
recover and move forward again.  And you know, I'm sure that those
people who did push it forward probably weren't trying to 'support' the
tradition.  They just loved woodblock prints.

So, sorry Greg, I'm personally not too interested in the new plastic
blocks or the methyl whatever, or the corn husks.  I'm not a purist
though (really!), and will always look forward to reading about such
things here on [Baren]. 

Our future is in front of us.  (if you see what I mean ...)

Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:49:54 +0900
Subject: [Baren 3016] This is the last one - honest! 

Breaking a bunch of my own rules here tonight, I'm sorry ...

But this will be the last you hear from me for a bit.  Around noon
tomorrow I'm off to Okinawa, until Tuesday (actually some little island
somewhere near Okinawa).  I've been 'going at it' non-stop since
around last October, and friend Sadako has been getting a bit worried. 
She's been trying to get me to take some time off, but I wanted to get
everything wrapped up first.  Her point that they would be wrapping _me_
up soon if I don't get out of here for a while makes sense though, so I
let her book the trip ...

The timing is good too, I'm finally caught up with most of the backlog
of Hyakunin Isshu stuff from the exhibition, and am ready to peacefully
start the new series.  It's not a bad idea to get away for a break, and
then come back to start 'fresh'.

See you next week!

Dave

P.S.  Jim, don't worry - I'll mail the exchange stuff on the way to the
airport tomorrow!

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:16:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3017] Re: Ideal wood 

Gregory wrote....
>we also be consulting Dupont and 3M for a good synthetic substitute for wood
>blocks?  Maybe it would induce us to get out our sketch pad instead of our
>rip saw whenever we see a stately cherry orchard...

You got me to thinking.  Dupont make a producted used for letterpress
printing some years ago.  It was introduced to offset the high price of
copper plates at that time.  One of the features was/is that it have
excellent response to the inks (petroleum base) and could do very fine
printing.
I wonder.......must investigate..... I can't remember the name ....oh well
....that's the privilege of old age.

>If the ceremonial calls for eagle feathers and you say,
>"what the hell, we'll use plastic cut-outs...they're cheaper"
>pretty soon you don't have the ceremonial any more.

Ya well, I guess one has to be practical and then one has to ask what is it
that makes the print.....
The technique or the image.  If the material used is a deviation from the
tradition of cherry wood does this change the technique?  So this shina
plywood we use ..... like is that old school material combined with high
tech state of the art technology to give us a new product......I guess.

Would it be lovely to find material that did not limit the size of print
one wants to create.

Regards,

Graham

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From: "Ray Esposito" <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:25:56 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3018] Re: archival tape

Greg wrote:
>But I hear the heavy foot-fall of the implacable Ray, and see the glint of
>his menacing blade... and I feel very exposed on the pedastal I climbed up
>on the other day.

Just popped in on my way to the airport to check the mail.  I will answer
this slander when I get back.  :-)

>Let's get outta here!  (Remind me how do I get onto BA5...)

As to BA5 I notice David gave you the address.  Just one comment.  BA5 has
no rules.  It is the most free and easy place you can visit and it is a
forum for friends. And friendly is the key word.  However....everyone, and I
mean everyone, is assigned a nickname by me and that is that.  A nickname
may be changed via very humble request (or by downright mean threats - I'm
easy).  It's that kind of place and I have a LOT of questions for you I
cannot ask on Baren, it being so techie driven.  :-)

Got to scoot

Cheers
Ray

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From: "chris" <cbremmer@prairietech.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:06:04 -0600
Subject: [Baren 3019] Stippling techniques in woodcut 

Hello,
I'm curious as to the different techniques that are used in making fades, or
tonal graduations in woodcut.

I've seen James Mundie's examples and they are very nice.... does anyone
have any different techniques or tools that they use?

Thanks,
Chris Bremmer

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From: Shireen Holman <tholman@clark.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:00:25 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3020] introduction 

Hello,
I have just joined this list, so I would like to introduce myself. My name
is Shireen Holman. I live in Maryland, U.S.A. (although I grew up in
India). I have been a printmaker for about 20 years, most of that time
working in etching and monotype. But in the past few years I have been
making woodcuts and printing them on handmade paper. I've been making
artist's books, and am currently working on a new artist's book using
woodcuts. I've noticed the thread about types of wood - I am currently
using birch plywood, primarily because of availability and price. I don't
have any problem cutting fairly fine lines, and I like the grain, but the
wood does have a texture, which prints no matter how smoothly I think I
have sanded the surface.
I have a web page showing some of my work. The address is below. I look
forward to being part of this list.
Thanks
Shireen

***********************************************
Shireen Holman, Printmaker and Book Artist
email: tholman@clark.net
http://www.clark.net/pub/tholman/shireen/index.htm
***********************************************

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:47:52 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3021] Re: Stippling techniques in woodcut 

Chris Bremmer wrote....
>I'm curious as to the different techniques that are used
>in making fades, or tonal graduations in woodcut.

Hi Chris
Have you look at the posting at:
http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/topics/012/012_frame.html

If there are other questions ...do come back.

Regards,

Graham

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From: "Jeanne N. Chase" <studiojnc@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:53:29 -0500
Subject: [Baren 3022] Re: introduction 

Hello Shareen
Just got back from your Web Page. Very exciting work. I welcome you to
Baren, they are a great group of people. I think you will enjoy being a
member.

Jeanne

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From: Gregory Robison <grobison@swiftuganda.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:26:12 +0300
Subject: [Baren 3023] Re: Ideal wood 

Kampala, 10 February 1999

Graham wrote: 
>You got me to thinking.  Dupont make a producted used for letterpress
>printing some years ago.  It was introduced to offset the high price of
>copper plates at that time.  One of the features was/is that it have
>excellent response to the inks (petroleum base) and could do very fine
>printing."

You may be referring to photo polymer plates.  They are UV light sensitive,
are "developed" by washing out with water rather than toxic solvents, and
hold a pretty fine line (even a 150-line half-tone screen, I have been
told). I have been investigating this with the help of members of a
letterpress discussion group, and would be happy to pass on the information
I have acquired to anyone from Baren who would like to contact me directly.


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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3024] Re: Ideal wood 

Greg wrote....
>... would be happy to pass on the information
>I have acquired to anyone from Baren who would like to contact me directly.

Yes I would like to know.......but don't tell Dave B.   (<:

I sure did like Dave's posting.  Perfect, perfect, perfect.... and sure
glad that we have people that can focus on the tradional thingies in this
world.   You know we don't have enough of them as obvious in Japan and the
losing of a wonderful medium...

Keep plugging Dave. It is critically important.

Regards,

Graham

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:38:10 -0600
Subject: [Baren 3025] RE: Dave's point 

As always I enjoyed Dave's posting and I agree with Graham about the importance
of the traditional.

 There are many sites in the web that deal with prints, printmaking, etc. but
what attracted me (and has kept me here) to Baren was Dave's enthusiasm and his
insistance on carrying out an almost non-existent practice.   The underdog
syndrome as I call it in sports (I almost always rather be the underdog that
have an easy challenge!). Dave's willingness to share with us all his learning
keep even the oil printers coming back for more.

There are as many printmaking techniques available to the newbie as they are
Baren members. What I enjoy about water printing with woodblocks is the link to
a glorious past. The ability to do prints with a minimum of equipment and tools
and with materials readily available.  I know this statement is no longer true
even in present day Japan were the baren proper, the cherry blocks and the hosho
makers are disappearing faster than an endangered species. Substitutes can be
found that can still provide a similar experience without the need to go to
extremes.

There are those that love making prints and there are those that love
printmaking.

JULIO     {:-)

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:02:37 -0800
Subject: [Baren 3026] Re: Baren? 

Marco wrote....
>I remember you saying a while ago that you know of a place in Canada
>that offers some Barens at a better price than Mcclain's.
>Do you have their name or address or suggestion on what to get?

Marco
Yes they are available.... I get them through Noboru Sawai in Vanvouver.
The ones I am referring to are the same as described in the McCain's
catalogue, called Yoshida Baren.
Molded plastic on plywood core. The price here is $50.00 Can$ including
taxes and shipping.  You will need to apply the bamboo sheathe yourself. I
started with one of these and use it only on few occasions when a very soft
and sutble touch is needed.

Noboro is off the Japan to attend his exhibition so it may take a month to
get this to you.

The other Barens are custom made and range upward to $1000.00 for the
custom made jobs down to 500.00 for custom made with the inner coil made
from braided nylon filament line.  I use this kind and suits me just fine.
I have tried using Noboro's which is the most expensive
available.....$1500.00 and I am still satisfied with mine.  Some purest may
feel this is wrong but I come from the artistic side and the image is all
important with the craft and technique being secondary.

If you order the very best unit is it is money up front and no refund......
I guess the people in Japan figure when you make the best then refund is
not in the equation.

Let me know if I can help you further.

Regards,

Graham

PS I have posted this on the Baren as others may by interested.

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End of Baren Digest V6 #443
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