[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest            Thursday, 10 September 1998    Volume 04 : Number 271

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From: Gayle Wohlken <blueman@pantek.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:57:37 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1571] Re: Baren Digest V4 #270 

Dave, Dave, Dave,

You just don't want to believe anything but Flatland, do you?
We can develop skill without losing sight of the spiritual
essence of all that is.  That's how we develop skill.  We are
part of a big moving spirit machine.  But not machine as
cold.  Spirit is not cold, no matter what you say.  If you watch
tv while you print, then I guess you're on automatic like people
working in a foundry.  Everyone can get good at something if they
do it enough.  You should see how fast I type.  My spirit is writing
this, though.  You're such a man, Dave.  Ask the women here 
about spirit.  Sorry guys, if you feel offended.  I think if a man
achieves the knowledge of the spirit, he's evolved.  

I'm on my way to Tennessee.  We started at 8:00 and the car
overheated five miles down the road.  We are waiting for it
to become well through the skilled hands of our local mechanic.

Art is spirit.  Woodcuts are spirit.  I love everything about the
way I do them.  I love burnishing.  I love waiting to see what I 
get.  I love the wood.   I love carving.  

Gayle Wohlken

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From: Ramsey Household <cjramsey@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:56:06 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1572] Barens 

I have a question.  What kind of a baren do you use?  I have used a
teacher grade baren from Daniel Smith (wore one out) and a speedball
baren with bumps on it and silicone to treat it.  I also have a potato
shaped piece of hard wood  that has been smoothed and fits the hand very
well (it will never wear out) but does not apply an even pressure.  I
have not been very satisfied with my results.  The best results from a
baren came when I used a very loose, oil based ink.    I had no problems
with that one.  But I only used one color.  Any suggestions?  I find
that a press with the even pressure is not a challange, albeit a much
more expensive way to make prints.  In Austin, Texas, there was a place
where you could rent time on press and do it yourself.  Here in the Bay
Area, the only places I can find also rent you the printer (a human who
does the work for you) and the prices are beyond my means.  Jean, maybe
you know of a place that lets you rent time on the press and do your own
printing?

Well,  I guess that was more than one question.  I hope you all have
some ideas and preferences about this.

Thanks,

Carolyn

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From: gscholes@islandnet.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:11:14 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1573] Re: Baren Digest V4 #269 

Jean wrote....
> 	I notice that when we were discussing the specs for the print exchange,
> you specifically mentioned paper TORN to size.  I would like to challenge
> that sacred cow.  What's the big deal about torn?  It just means we are
> trying to make the paper look like it has a deckle when it doesn't.  

When you once learn how to tear the edge it will look very much like
deckled edge. The big deal is ....some buyers demand it....what else 
does one need.   Cut edges are so hurry up and get the job done and
commercial looking.

> Also, I think Americans are the only ones who use huge margins around
> their prints. 

Wait just a damn minute.  This is done in Canada as well. It is also done
in Europe.

Graham

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From: jimandkatemundie@juno.com (James G Mundie)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:53:49 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1574] Zen and the Art of Paper Tearing 

Jean wrote:
>James,
>	I notice that when we were discussing the specs for the print 
>exchange, you specifically mentioned paper TORN to size.  I would like to 
>challenge that sacred cow.  What's the big deal about torn?  It just means we 
>are trying to make the paper look like it has a deckle when it doesn't. 

Geez... I didn't realize you had such an allergic reaction to deckles!  :-)
When I said "torn" I only meant one would reduce a larger sheet down to
oban. Personally, I don't care how one makes that happen.  I wrote "torn"
because that is the standard method of reducing sheets size.  I don't try
to create an artificial deckle when I tear my sheets -- I just make them
smaller.

"The Sacred Cow of Torn Paper" is a new one on me, but I suspect there
are more menacing bovines to confront.

***

For Chris Bremmer, regarding your questions about tool preference:

I always start cutting with a razor blade and clear away wood with a
shallow U-gouge.  I don't even own a veiner (or V-gouge) because I simply
don't like using them.

Welcome to [Baren], Chris.

***

Jeanne, splendid woodcuts on your website.  Very lively feeling...

Mise le meas,
James Mundie, Philadelphia USA

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From: David Bull <davebull@woodblock.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:21:25 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1575] Re: spirit of printmaking 

Gayle,
Thank you for the obviously heartfelt reply.  

I don't want to respond at too much length, because anything else I add
to my previous thoughts might just seem to be arguing against your
feelings ... 

> Spirit is not cold, no matter what you say.  

I think you might be reading more into my comments than I intended. I
was just trying to say that I see the world as quite a simple place -
'what we see is what we get', and that I don't think we need recourse to
thoughts of any 'higher plane' of activity.

Of course, there are many things we do not yet understand about how the
universe works (especially such a complicated part of it as we humans
ourselves) but I do believe that we will pretty much get it sorted out
one day, and that we will find straightforward explanations for the
sorts of experiences and feelings that you are talking about.

But I reject the idea that this makes me 'cold'. I too, love this work
(and my life) very much indeed. I would hope that some of those feelings
come out in everything I do. I think that (for example) an angry and
bitter man would make angry and bitter prints, and when I thus sit in a
quiet room and look over the hundreds of warm and peaceful prints that I
have made, it gives me immense feelings of satisfaction and pleasure.

... and even us Flatlanders can enjoy such feelings, believe it or not!

Dave

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From: Sheryl Coppenger <sheryl@seas.gwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:30:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Baren 1576] Re: Baren Digest V4 #269 

> 	Question: what can one add to etching ink to turn it into wood block
> printing ink?  Is there a recipe for making oil based ink from pigment that
> one can share with me?

According to the Graphic Chemicals catalog, the intaglio inks and the
block printing inks they sell under the banner "Perfection Palette" (or
something like that) are identical.  I've also used the inks for
monotypes.  Did you actually try etching ink as block ink and have a 
problem?

Sheryl Coppenger  

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From: "David Stones" <stones@mb.i-chubu.ne.jp>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:35:31 +0900
Subject: [Baren 1577] Re: An introduction, a bit late 

Dear Baren Members,

Seems we long-time lurkers in Nippon must surface and join the real world,
the recent postings and comments re woodblock art here prompt some
action I guess so, as Dave B has often mentioned that I should add an
intro... I'm Dave S (Stones) another ex-deshi of Tomikichiro Tokuriki of
Kyoto. My printroom is in a farmhouse in the hills of Okazaki - a bit south
of Tokyo and a bit less north of Kyoto. When I left the U.K. (add one
Brit.?) in 1968 I was a commercial printer's typesetter in the world of
lead/wooden type and only began to create woodblock prints after a
arriving here, the second time, via Australia (the first was via Siberia)...
End short history...

My present prints are done in the "traditional" way as far as they use solid
blocks, Japanese pigments and the baren while sitting on the mat floor - the
works are quite small (about half Oban-size is "large" for me) and now I'm
trying to let the pigments have a fuller rein on the paper as they print the
not-so-fine-lines of my designs, that record some of the fast-disappearing
Japan around me. Editions are up to 200, and I've been at the bench here for
over 24 of the last 28 years - But, from this year, I share some time with
computers as I "upgrade" old skills via the keyboard to do on-screen layout
etc., both on the Mac at a printing co. and, as yet, with "Windows" at home,
for text. One foot in the 19th Century and one foot in the 21st is an
interesting experience... whether I succeed in this new project depends
on many factors but I intend to continue creating woodblock art as usual -
doing about 7 or 8 prints a year - No. 206 awaits attention now that the
awfully hot/wet "summer" has cooled hereabouts.

Anyway, that's enough. I'm no expert but if I can add a few comments to
compare notes with others just remember there's a second Dave (ex?)lurking
behind your monitor(s)... I've no Web site (only got e-mail in April) but
Dave B has offered his kind help if I can get some scanned prints or send
some work so I'll get round to that - soon - it's only taken five months to
get this typed up... O.K. Dave up there near Tokyo - I officially exist,
on-line... now, how do I send this?

Kind regards to all,

Dave S

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From: gscholes@islandnet.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:41:57 (PDT)
Subject: [Baren 1578] Re: New prints 

It was with interest and amazement, when I read the posting
by Gary  "New Prints" 

> I'm going to pump some new life into it and introduce a whole
> new genre of woodblock prints, and I better be able to find someone to
> carve and print them 

I don't see that it would be possible for one person to do this. 
Are you planning on enlisting an army of artist.  

> because I'm too busy designing 'em to take the time
> and learn how to do it myself.

If you learn how to do it you could carry on the tradition, 
as many people are, and you would'nt have to enlist an army of artists.   

> Yeah, that's right, me, the"computer" designer.   

I didn't know you designed computers....no wonder you are to busy to 
learn the craft of woodblock printmaking.

> Sure, it helps in designing them, but there is _no_ printing like 
> woodblock printing done in the traditional sense!

Can I play devils advocate again....if you have never done it how do
you know "there is _no_ printing like woodblock printing."

Artist that create prints using other methods will certainly challenge
you on this statement.  Have you ever tried Waterless Litho?

If you can change the world of printmaking all the more power to you.

Graham

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From: Julio.Rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:37:30 -0500
Subject: [Baren 1579] more misc. 

Welcome Dave S. to Baren. WOW ! Two Dave's, they are both in Japan, they
both work on the traditional style and they both shared the same teacher.
Only in the net!.  Looking forward to seeing some of your work and getting
to know more about your background and experiences.

Regarding "religion", Zen, spirits.............
Won't go there. I share some of the same thoughts that Dave expressed, yet
I also sometimes get good vibes....enough!

Regarding the folio prints......as we get closer to D-day (delivery)....
I don't know how the rests of the participants feel, but I think I want to
experience the same feeling that James will get when he opens up his mail
and gets to hold those prints in his hands for the very first time. In
other words, I don't want to know what the others are working on, I don't
want to see previews,  sketches, or hear about subject matter, or problems
encountered along the way. I want to be surprised! The prints can be put on
the web after we have all received our folios and had a chance to enjoy. .
what do others think ?

Regarding Tomikichiro Tokuriki........
Dave B., Dave S.,...... what is the name of his book some of you refer to
in your earlier postings ? How long did you study with this teacher ?

ps.    If God dropped acid......would he/she see people ????????

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From: Sheryl Coppenger <sheryl@seas.gwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:47:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Baren 1580] Re: Gary Gary! 

David and Gary discussed 'Zen' ...

This discussion reminds me of some of the lecture in my Materials and
Methods class last spring.  That was a class in forging paintings from
medieval and renaissance times, basically.  It's aimed at art history
majors here (required for them), but also counts as a painting credit
for us studio types.

The neat thing about the class was that the teacher didn't treat the
old methods as museum exercises.  We had a lot of readings to "get 
into the head" of people doing the work and he emphasized that all the
work we saw was being produced by a walking culture in which people
got all of their idea about beauty from nature -- and that the "B"
word was OK in his class.  He also told us that it was a mistake to
think of medieval art or the flemish technique as dead or only belonging
to a fixed period because as long as anyone was making new art with
the same techniques/artistic priorities we were *still* in the period.  

That doesn't mean to say that there aren't long dry spells.  What great
egg tempera painters (or even very good ones except for some forgers) were 
there between the early renaissance and the 20th century?  But now there's 
Wyeth and Vickrey and more I don't know about I'm sure.  Enough for Rowney 
to figure out how to put them in tubes and sell them.  That's in addition 
to amateurs in the Society for Creative Anachronism who are practicing the 
old arts and conservators in places like the Library of Congress who provide
enough market to keep people producing parchment and archaic pigments.

IMO it's great to have an enthusiastic body of amateurs even producing
derivative work during a "dry spell".  That provides a "critical mass" of
knowledge and supply sources which will let someone burst through with 
innovations somewhere down the road.  I don't see why it shouldn't work
that way with woodblock printing.

To be sure there aren't a lot of artists who can sell enough production to
hire other people to execute the work.  On a class trip to the National
Gallery we looked at a folio of wood engravings by an artist who had a
stable of craftsmen to carve the blocks and print the work (forgot his
name, but still living I think).  Mark Kostabi and Jeff Koons among others
maintain workshops, but they're working in the "media of the moment".  We
may not see woodcuts become that popular again in our lifetimes, but
who knows?

> 
> > I myself am convinced that given proper 'management' and 
> > direction, there would be a lot of life in the craft
> > yet.  We'll see what the future brings - perhaps some surprises.
> 
> I'm on _your_ side on this Gary.  And I think so is everybody else who
> will be reading these things.  We can all see what is necessary.  Now
> all we have to do (!) is make the prints ...

Exactly. If we have something new to say in a medium, it's not dead.  And
I use "new" advisedly -- something the person wants to express and hasn't
expressed before, not "new" in terms of "never seen on the face of the 
earth before".  Even with classic media, styles and themes, a person can
bring a new point of view to the table.
 
> Gary asked:
> > how, Dave, would you say woodblock artisans sense the 
> > religious aspects of their work?

Dave stated that he's not religious and doesn't get into that aspect.
I don't practice any organized religion myself, but I have experienced
that feeling that others mentioned about being surprised about results --
almost as if "channeling" some outside force.  The concept of "flow"
was pretty big a few years ago.  The idea is that one gets in some
kind of altered state when really involved in an activity.  This happens
with me sometimes when doing art, and those times are when I produce
work that surprises me.  I don't think about any particular deity
involved, but for me it is spiritual.  And even if there are other things
going on I kind of tune them out in this state.

But I think there is danger in using "flow" as a crutch in art.  Or
"mood" or "inspiration" or whatever.  It was a big step for me a few
years ago because I went from being an artist who worked when the muse
struck, but not regularly.  When I started taking classes it was more
like a job, "art on demand", and I didn't have much control over ceremony
or environment.  But I developed alternative rituals to get the flow
started.  I've made an art of sharpening litho pencils and preparing
myself mentally while engaged in that repetitive task.  In a certain
sense it's no different than some of the rituals that people do to
tell themself "now it's time to go to sleep", except that I'm telling
myself "now it's time to make art".

That's not to say that I'm in my own little world the whole time.  I
joke around, take breaks, etc.  But "flow"/"zen" is very special.  IMO
we love activities we love bacause they give us that altered state.  There
are areas in which I'm as talented/more talented, but doing the activity
doesn't put me in that state.  I'll do it for a short time to accomplish
a goal, but I don't dream about it, look forward to doing it for its
own sake (or at least not after the newness wears off).

YMMV of course.  Gee, that was a long posting.  I think I got a good
start on the 10,000 words Dave was talking about.  :-)

Sheryl Coppenger    

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:50:19 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1581] Re: Barens 

Hi Carolyn

I think you are referring to a Disk Baren, the one with the bumps.  I had been
using a Speedball, smooth baren and it did not satisfy me at all. I then
purchased the Disk Baren and just got through running about 6 colors on a
print. I even used the wring Rives paper at first until I switched to light
weight Rives.  They both came out just fine. I really like the Disk. If your
paint is too thick perhaps that was the problem. I always like my ink a little
loose.
I did run a woodblock on my press.  BUT there is something so much more
satisfying when it is done the old fashioned way, with the Baren !!!

Jeanne

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From: StudioJNC@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:54:38 EDT
Subject: [Baren 1582] Re: Zen and the Art of Paper Tearing 

James
 When you mentioned that you use a razor blade to start the fine edges, just
how do you handle the blade so that you are not minus a finger. I would like
to do that also as the blades can be discarded easily when dull. ????????? Do
you have a special holder ???????
Just curious me, and thanks.

Jeanne

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From: Dean Brink <interpoetics@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:20:57 -0700
Subject: [Baren 1583] Re: wood, knives and spirit 

The word "spirit" acts like "ocean," "moon," "dreaminess" or "god": big,
fuzzy ball of hope and fear tempting us to have faith that whatever
minute action we engage in, it's going to be meaningful. "Spirit"
seduces us to believe that there's meaning in the mundane, as if
"spirit" ran through everything like "time," "chemistry" or an ambiguous
"return" (dividend of meaning) in all things - as if design, line and
color always panned out into an ether to breathe deep _without the
artist's mediation_. "Spirit" (as a word) robs us of our noggins.

Of course something like the spiritual is important, and I can't think
of a better way than doing some art (to make it through the "sick
rose"). But "spirit" is one of those distracting words that from my
observation robs many artists of the sensible "edge" which allows them
to turn the leaves of the world into a beautifully sputtering compost
heap framed and in prints reproduced.

I wonder if the panclusive *^spirit^* isn't another abyssive word that
distracts us from the process of creating, acting as an excuse for
inattention to some detail or intensity that makes art meaningful. I
don't mean to imply that spacing out or watching TV is a damaging
distraction. Part of making interesting associations and compositions
involves a sort of autonomous trance-like participation. But on the
critical level, when we come back to a language for discussing the
processes of printing (or other arts), "spirit" is somehow too
ungrounded, bodiless, and yet Mall-like in its all-inclusive pillars of
reference.

I don't think there is a

>  spiritual essence of all that is.

Nor that

> We are part of a big moving spirit machine.

Nor that

> If you watch tv while you print, then I guess you're on automatic like
> people
> working in a foundry.

Nor that one's

> spirit is writing

Too much spirit spoils the texture, warps the rhythm, unfocuses the
eye....etc...

dean

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:36:31 -0400
Subject: [Baren 1584] Re: Barens 

Carolyn wrote:
>The best results from a
>baren came when I used a very loose, oil based ink.    
...
>Jean, maybe you know of a place that lets you rent time 
>on the press and do your own printing?

Carolyn

I am not sure what you are saying here.  At first you seem to be saying you
prefer the baren to a press then you ask Jean how to find a press.  Permit
me to try to answer both questions, if there are two.

If you prefer a baren and want avoid the press, than I suggest spending the
money and ordering a quality baren from McClain's.  If Dave has taught me
anything over the 10 months, it is that a quality baren is essential.  The
ency. lists a number of sources for supplies.  I now perfer a press because
of arthritis in my hands and because I do other prints besides woodblock.

As to your question on finding a press, I understand the problem.  Here in
Florida it is impossible to find a press.  The only place to do so is at
one of the colleges or univrsities but they do not have open studio.  You
have to take a course to use the press.

My solution was to buy a press.  There are two approaches to this.  Buy a
small press for $300-$400 from Speedball or Dick Blick (the better of the
two) or buy a full size press from Patrick Designs in Canada and take
advantage of the weak Canadian dollar.  Having your own press, especially
full size, gives you the total freedom you need as an artist.  Of course,
it goes without saying, you need the space for a full size press.

As an aside,  I take issue with your statement that "I find that a press
with the even pressure is not a challange, albeit a much more expensive way
to make prints".  Using a press properly can be a challange indeed.  I do
monotypes and viscosity printed collagraphs besides woodblocks.  In each
case, getting from the plate what you want onto the paper takes a lot of
skill.  That is why there are such people as master printers and why many
artists, even well known artists, use such professionals.  I prefer to do
my own printing because that was how I was trained and I enjoy the challanges.

Hope this helps.  Sorry if I misinterpeted your question.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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End of Baren Digest V4 #271
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