[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Friday, 10 July 1998 Volume 04 : Number 209 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsampat@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:43:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Baren 1131] Announcement: Water base roll up inks Hi: If you use oil base roll up inks for your woodcuts, now you have an alternative. 'AquaGraphic (TM)' water base roll up inks are equally effective, keep your studio environment free of toxic fumes, and save you on the clean up costs. The inks are totally free of VOCs and hydrocarbons. The inks are tacky, and rolled out thin and even before rolling it on the wood. Inks are cleaned up with a mild solution of detergent in water. You may visit the web site at http://www.bigfoot.com/~safeartinks Thanks, Naresh Sampat safeartinks@bigfoot.com ------------------------------ From: Gayle Wohlken Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:03:02 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1132] Re: Baren Digest V4 #208 Baren, I want to be among those begging our runaway member to come home. We don't want to lose important people. I think Dave wanted to just remind us about the Baren's role in helping woodcut artists to find answers and share problems. One person usually has to be the "heavy", and Dave got stuck with that. It's a difficult job and we all know what a sensitive person Dave is. He doesn't want to lose people over his job as list owner. He needs to remind us from time to time because it's the most natural thing to have fun and play. We have recently acquired new members and of course we want to spend some time introducing ourselves to each other. I think that's what happened. A lot of new members and a lot of getting acquainted made for a party atmosphere. Please come back. I think yours is a voice we'll all miss. ***** I am happy to see Hideshi Yoshida has joined the Baren. We will certainly have questions to ask you, Hideshi, and look forward to the new additions on your website. Your work is quite wonderful. **** Welcome to Elizabeth Atwood. **** Is anyone out there besides me trying the James Mundie style of needling and razor blading the image onto the wood? I recently tried one and did my first print of it last night. I was disappointed. I felt I had needled and scraped and brushed and poked til there was nothing but stuff to print. When I pulled that print, everything was shadowy to the point of mud. What am I doing wrong? Maybe only James can answer this, but I thought others might be interested. Gayle Wohlken ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:04:27 +0900 Subject: [Baren 1133] Re: John's blocks ... and etc. John wrote: > There is a pair of carved woodblocks for sale ... > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=20307911 These were quite interesting. The photo is so dark it's impossible to tell much about the image, but the block itself seems a pretty typical type for that era. There seems to be no 'kento' so it was probably a monochrome illustration ... > I'm a little surprised how localized the carving is and > how much ink seems to be around the edges That also seems pretty typical. Those splashes of ink up at the top of the photo seem a bit unusual though, and I suspect that at some point along the line, somebody else has had a go at inking and printing it ... > Do any of you all use a paper "mask" in your work? I thought > that I could employ a paper flap hinged on the side that would > keep such areas from making contact with the printing stock. This _does_ work to keep blots off unwanted areas of the paper ... but (if I can say this without being patronizing), it won't help you develop any baren technique. I think to start using a mask like that would be similar to encouraging a child to use a 'walker' all the time when they are learning to walk. Sure it's OK now and then, but it wouldn't be something you would want to become dependent on ... *** Welcome to new members Bettie and Jeanne ... It's interesting that one of you mentions doing reduction prints; this really seems to be a popular technique these days. Sheryl has done some, and just this afternoon I received the text for a new Encyclopedia entry on this from Andrea Rich (who I think may be popping up here any day now ...) http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/updates.html And there were those unbelievable reduction prints by Tom Davidson that we saw the other day ... http://www.priors.co.uk/tom_davidson.htm Maybe we should become the [Baren] Reducing Forum ... *** Matt wrote re: 'craft facility liberates expression' > Indeed, much of the magic of the woodcut seems to be > in its inherent crudity and technical difficulty, I think Matt has tossed this one out to see just how far I would jump! If that sentence was recast as: Even crude woodcuts can have magic ... then I'd buy it, but coming from the Japanese tradition as I do, I don't see the woodcut as an inherently crude medium. My personal bias is very much the other way, and although I respect Matt's viewpoint when he writes ... > I have been noticing that often strength of expression > increases with limited means. Put another way, the > crude efforts of the beginner often speak more forcefully > and clearly than the practised polished work of the > experienced craftsman. ... I have to say that I don't see it that way. John, may I use that crab of yours as an example? Interesting, yes. Attractive, yes. Commendable, yes. But when I look at it, my fingers itch for the brushes and baren! Hmmm ... a smooth deep red _there_, a nice gradation _there_ ... etc. etc. I'm certain that the John of twenty years from now, with two decades of printmaking experience under his belt, will be able to make a much better print of this design! 'craft facility liberates expression' ... I'm sure of it! *** Jim's exhibition schedule ... Although this isn't something that affects me personally over here in Japan, reading that list of your upcoming participations leads me to ask just how you manage to get involved with so many shows. Is it a matter of sending in applications all over the place? What should other members of [Baren] do if they want to get exhibited like this? Can you lay out some advice ... *** Kent wrote: >I asked a question about the lightfastness of ink and did not receive >a reply. I think Kent, that what happened is simply that none of us were able to answer your question. You asked: >Are there ANY inks for woodblock >printing that are reasonably lightfast which I can use with some >confidence or must I forever print in black? None of us here on [Baren] are scientists (to my knowledge); we are just printmakers like yourself. We have no specialist's access to knowledge on this topic. I am sure that if one of the members had known how to answer your query, he/she would have done so. For myself, I know of no such thing as a lightfast pigment, and whenever this topic has come up on [Baren] I find myself suggesting that people accept the fact that prints will fade ... April, can you give us some information on this? I think Bill Paden prepared some materials on the relative lightfastness of various pigments - if you have that available, can you communicate some of it to Kent? Thanks *** > Is Baren a serious medium of inquiry or a social bulletin board? Again speaking for myself, I rather hope that we would fall somewhere in the middle. I have no interest at all in running an 'academic' type forum, one in which communication was impersonal and serious. If that is the direction in which things moved, I would opt out and pass on the baton to someone else. But just how far in the other direction we move will have to be a matter of exploration ... and occasional adjustment. Dave B. ------------------------------ From: "Roger A. Ball" Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:26:02 -0600 Subject: [Baren 1134] Answers to various questions All: A hearty welcome to all the new members. I hope we can all trade info and feedback. Sorry for the delay in answering--Wyoming was wonderful. Gayle: Walnut is hard as hell and I like it. Poplar and its ilk are way too soft for my tastes. It works okay for me; I seem to get less drop outs in fine work than with other woods and I have tried many kinds. Thank you for your kind comments about the art. April: Thank you also for the comments about the art, but _Paint Thinner?_ to clean up? No thanks. I'll get better at water-based if it takes me a hundred years. What is your recommendation for something better than Speedball in water-based and why do you find the thought of me using it so reprehensible (as do others on the list)? Is there something inherently awful about the gunk that I ought to know? Being just a pre-proof of the first stage, I indeed intend to add more light vs. dark. I also intend to do three color regressive for shading. Jim: I call anything that I still need to cut on to get to a particular regressive stage a pre-proof. Especially these which are among the first few prints from the block. I'm not sure what anybody else terms a "pre-proof," however. Thank you all. You are a joy to hear and talk to. - -roger ------------------------------ From: Phil Bivins Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:50:47 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1135] Re: Hello ! Welcome Hideshi to Baren. I think you will find this forum both enlightening and controversial. What else could one ask for. Phil ------------------------------ Subject: [Baren 1136] Message duplicated in error ------------------------------ From: jimandkatemundie@juno.com (James G Mundie) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:12:43 -0400 Subject: [Baren 1137] Various topics of concern from Baren Digest V4 #208 Baren, I apologize for the length of this post, but there are many matters I felt needed reply... Matt wrote regarding Adams' words: "craft facility liberates expression": >Though personally I believe in practice, practice, practice; I have been >noticing that often strength of expression increases with limited means. Put >another way, the crude efforts of the beginner often speak more forcefully >and clearly than the practised polished work of the experienced craftsman. Perhaps there is a sense of excitement in these first stumbling steps, but I think Adams meant to say that with the necessary skills, one gains a more efficient means of expressing oneself. >Think of the "blood blocks" of the German Expressionist woodcut artists. A lot of those guys weren't nearly as "unskilled" as they let on. Many of those powerful strokes of the gouge took careful (and forceful) placement to say the most with the least effort. With some of those works, I get more the feeling of restrained mastery than an angst-ridden German hacking away at the board. >...much of the magic of the woodcut seems to be in its inherent crudity and >technical difficulty, particularly in this age of computers when we have very >sophisticated image-making tools at our disposal. I think one of the great joys of woodblock in this electronic age is that such a relatively simple craft can so envelop the craftsman. It is up to the craftsmen to take this magic and make something of it. *** John wrote: >Do any of you all use a paper "mask" in your work? I thought that I >could employ a paper flap hinged on the side that would keep such areas from >making contact with the printing stock. The technique works well with >wood engraving. Thoughts, observations? I sometimes do this when printing my woodcuts, John. You see, I don't tend to work to a standard size, and as most of my prints don't involve color and the registration that would require, I tend to draw directly on the block. Often, as my boards may be about a foot wide, I may have two or three small woodcuts on the same block. Another image may be separated from the image being printed by less than a centimeter or two. When rolling up one image with the brayer for printing, invariably a bit of the next image will catch some ink. To keep this extra ink from printing on the margins, I insert a strip of paper towel. Works like magic for oil-based ink. I think that even with water based pigment, a _dry_ sheet of paper would give one enough time to print the image before the pigment soaked through. *** Jeanne wrote: >James; Congratulations on all of your present accomplisments in the >Printmaking department. the first time I get in a Printmaking show I am really >going to celebrate. Until then I will bask in your Glory !! Thankee. I hope you will find the corona sufficiently warming. > Just bought an Arkansas stone. Just seeking more info. Anything better out >there ? See Jean's and Graham's posts about sharpening stones from last week. *** Welcome, Elizabeth. I look forward to seeing your website. I envy your location. My wife and get up to Maine every so often, and a friend and former instructor, Dan Miller (a woodcut artist, no less), lives in Maine during the summer months. *** regarding Dave's open letter: >I was shocked this morning to see in my Inbox your short note asking >that I delete your name from the list of [Baren] members. In my mind, >you are one of the 'core' members of this group, a major contributor >to the list (and the Encyclopedia) both in 'real' content and in overall >'energy'. I can only echo Dave's and Gary's remarks. Your contributions and banter help to keep this Baren moving. It would likely be sluggish and dull without you. *** Kent wrote: >I recently joined the Baren group in the hope of learning more than I >know after 15 years of making woodblock prints. I asked a question >about the lightfastness of ink and did not receive a reply. Instead, >I was bombarded with messages about the personal lives of printmakers. Kent, please be patient with us. Speaking for myself, I read your question and was interested in it; but as I had no advice to offer I remained silent. After thinking about it for a while now, perhaps this fading problem has to do with the brand of ink you are using. They may be skimping and using lake pigments, which are notoriously fugitive, whether in direct sunlight or not. In my etchings, I have been using ink by Graphic Chemical and have noticed no discernable fading after five years. >Is Baren a serious medium of inquiry or a social bulletin board? Usually Baren is just the right mix of both. It's easier to share information with someone you know a bit better. *** Hideshi, I look forward to the wealth of knowledge you can share with us! Mise le meas, James Mundie, Philadelphia USA ------------------------------ From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:52:56 -0600 Subject: [Baren 1138] re:Open Letter I think David's request is right on target. Lately the number of "chat" mailings have out-numbered the "meat & potatoes" stuff. Perhaps is as result of the great progress being done with the encyclopedia, that perhaps members are feeling that they go there for how-to technical info.....and use the forum for just chatting about. Perhaps we need some clarification on this matter. It's not the first time that David has come forward and asked for some consideration on this matter. Although I am not a "major" contributor to Baren, I have managed to keep up with the discussions and going-ons since I first found Baren in the internet back in November of 97. Occassionally I put my two-cents in when something hits home. Because I "get" Baren thru my work email at the office; it's not unusual to come in on Monday mornings and find 20-30 messages to go thru. Sometimes it's very difficult to sort thru the "chat" and the "technical" stuff. It is still fun and I usually keep the "technical" and delete the "chat". I enjoy Ray's & Graham's mailings. If Dave's articles are the heart of Baren; I guess that Ray's and Graham's fun-spirited contributions can be considered the "soul" that helps Baren keep going strong. Although I did not contact David, last week I also was considering dropping out from Baren's mailing list (at least for a while) . The back & forth chat and large number of messages was killing me. I decided to wait it out, figuring David would be sending out "let's-keep-it-more-business-related" message soon ( and he did !). No one should be offended by such a request. My feelings are that if you want to add some humor, or a hello, or a by-the-way.....to your mailings that's fine...but only if there is some "meaty" stuff to go with it. Perhaps mailings for "welcomes", personal-sharing-of-info, B&B stuff and other non-woodblock-printing items......can be kept off Baren and members can just email each other directly. As I explained back in April when I shared news of my new web-site, my springs & summers are dedicated entirely to youth baseball. I put a web-site up for my kids organization (www.skokienet.org/skyouth) in March and I coach and play baseball around the clock. No time for anything else. When September rolls around I am planning to get back to doing some carving & printing and also adding a personal web-site with some of my art work. Till then, Baren keeps me & my printing dreams going....and I will continue to check Baren to keep adding to my limited knowledge on woodblock printing. ps. Kent... don't feel bad, I too sometimes put up mailings and get no response (ex. Baren 1013). Keep trying, specially with the sharing of technical stuff, it's the main reason behind this great forum. ------------------------------ From: StudioJNC@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:08:39 EDT Subject: [Baren 1139] Re:Open Letter I joined Baren to expand my knowledge of the woodcut, which I am doing. I agree with David that idle chit chat does not belong here but a sense of humor is sometimes welcomed. I also DO like to hear about new members. Not a long tome but a short bio is appreciated. After all, how else can you become acquainted. For information on Print Exhibitions there is a great little magazine out there called Art Calendar (The Business Magazine For Visual Artists} It has interesting articles on all phases of art and creativity plus most of the upcoming Competitions; Art Calendar P.O. Box 199 Upper Fairmount, MD 21867-0199 Jeanne ------------------------------ From: Jean Eger Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:03:50 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1140] Re: Baren Digest V4 #208 Dear Dave, I am glad you urged the member not to leave. However, sometimes people go on vacation and want the list stopped so it doesn't clog up the mailbox. If you let the person go, he or she will be back, because basically it is a group of people of good will. Don't worry about it, Dave. It's OK to deep-six inappropriate messages. By the way, Graham, I went out and bought an eight-foot board of basswood thanks to your suggestion. Sincerely, Jean Eger ------------------------------ From: Jack Reisland Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:52:14 -0700 Subject: [Baren 1141] Re:Lightfastness of inks To Kent: Sorry to hear of your mishap with the red inked prints, and I can understand your frustration at not receiving an answer to your question. I think the problem is that your question is a very difficult one. First, light fastness is a relative concept, for example, art suppliers have one standard for light fastness, while industrial manufacturers have another. Secondly, light fastness of an ink is a function of both the pigment and the binders, and to some degree the interaction between the two. The largest variable is of course, the pigment itself, with a wide degree of variation in light fastness from one color to another. This is complicated by the fact that pigment names and sources can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Fortunately, some pigment and ink suppliers are now conducting their own light fastness testing on their products and can supply information on their individual colors. The answer to your question is unfortunately yes and no. You can print with a relatively light fast color palate but your color selections will be severely limited. If light fastness of a pigment is your major concern use inks from a source that has tested their light fastness and chose those colors that meet your standards. I might point out though, that down through the ages printmakers and water colorists have accepted that some pigments are not light fast and chosen to use them anyway for the certain colors and effects that only those pigments could give. For the most part, experienced collectors also accept that colored prints are not light fast and handle them accordingly. Jack Reisland Reisland Conservation and Restoration Gig Harbor, WA ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V4 #209 ***************************