[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Thursday, 14 May 1998 Volume 03 : Number 155 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown) Date: 13 May 98 10:19:29 EDT Subject: [Baren 749] Craft shows Graham, There are a couple of 'tricks' one can try in going out onto the street (or the park, or the convention hall, etc.). One is to bring some work along. If you set up and carve this really draws a crowd, and it also allows you to get something done. An interested crowd is certainly one of the first steps towards sharing a craft and making sales. A bad craft fair can mean being able to get done a lot of carving (and no getting up to check the e-mail, etc.!) Matt ------------------------------ From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown) Date: 13 May 98 10:29:05 EDT Subject: [Baren 750] Brushes Ray, Hurrah for you! I have often wondered about using shoebrushes, and you've gone ahead and scoped it out! I figured I would need to find older ones, yard sale items, assuming horsehair would be a thing of the past. But you bought new ones? Can you keep us posted how these are working out? Matt ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: [Baren 751] Re: newbie tip Dave wrote: >OK Ray, I'll bite at this one ... >If you are expecting me to come down on your suggestion about the shoe >brushes ... then I'll have to disappoint you - it sounds like a great >idea. I don't know why you thought I thought you would come "down on me". It never crossed my mind. >What I _do_ want to 'argue' with is the comment about the high costs of >Japanese printmaking. This seems to be quite a common myth, and I'm at >a loss to understand how it got started. There has got to be _no_ >printmaking technique that is as simple, low cost, and easy to get >started with than Japanese style printmaking. You are 100% correct "for your experience" but there is one flaw in your arguement. Of course the cost over the long run is not all that expensive. The point I would make is it is the "getting started" expense that is high. $50 for a brush? $80 for sharkskin?, $60 for a gouge?, etc. Of course you can get started much less expensively and that was the point of my post. But if someone wanted to "do it right" and buy all quality materials, it would cost a fortune before you carved your first line. I wanted to show that you could do it on a shoestring, produce some decent work, gain experience and then purchase your better materials piece by piece, tool by tool. You are also correct when you mention other printmaking techniques can be more expensive but I would argue they are the reverse of Japanese printmaking in that the "start-up" expenses are lower but it can be more expensive in the long run. You can utilize presses via open studio without the expense of buying your own until you gain experience. THEN it gets expensive. There is no printmaking technique less expensive to enter than monotype which is one reason I began there. Isn't arguing long distance fun????? :>) Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: [Baren 752] Re: Brushes Matt wrote: > Hurrah for you! I have often wondered about using shoebrushes, and >you've gone ahead and scoped it out! I figured I would need to find older ones, >yard sale items, assuming horsehair would be a thing of the past. But you >bought new ones? Can you keep us posted how these are working out? I will be happy to. By the way, horse hair is not out of date. I bought my shoe brushes at Target. In fact, their shoe department only sold horsehair. Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Blueman Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:59:10 -0400 Subject: [Baren 753] Re: Baren Digest V3 #154 Graham's joke: > A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good. I've never heard it said better. ***** Meanwhile, Dave, some of us just starting out with materials and very little money do find it expensive. Everytime I buy paper I worry how long it will las t and I don't do editions and people aren't beating on my door to buy. Right now I'm thinking about paper and pigments, and the brushes that are right for the job. I ordered some stuff and the box is filling slowly. I don't have the pigments yet and my one try at it with plain watercolors and household paste (as you suggested in your lesson) was a disaster (maybe because of the unsized paper), but I hate to admit I keep getting pleasurable successes with my oilbased ink images when I really do want to try the hanga method. Another thing I hate to admit is I haven't felt the same since I got hit in the head with thatsculpture the day I was undoing the pile of wrong paper two weeks ago. Too many hurdles I guess. Usually I don't give up and I'm sure I won't until I get at least one decent print. I've got to think what I'll use for a baren. You said a rice paddle, but I can't imagine getting a good image when they are selling barens in McClains for $900. I realize you don't all have $900 barens, but $350 is a lot of money and so is $50 for that matter when you're buying everything else. This is going to take time (the gathering of the materials) and if Ray finds those shoe brushes working for him, I think go for it. ***** Graham, the article on Giclee is informative. Keep up the crusade. I wish I could figure out the answers to your little koans. Gayle Wohlken ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:14:58 -0700 Subject: [Baren 754] Re: newbie tip Dave wrote, >$600 to make 6000 prints ... let's see, that's an investment of about 10 >cents per print ... What's that expression!!!! 'Give'm hell Harry'. You know Ray, he is absolutely right. Think we can stop our whinning. Graham ps Ray .. haven't forgotten your request for the price of basswood. I have the cost of the raw lumber.....$5.00 board ft. US Waiting to get the cost of milling and planing. Talk soon. ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:24:52 -0700 Subject: [Baren 755] Re: Craft shows Thanks for this Matt. I have all the equipment at the show, lots of images, knives etc and always print something (one colour). I have them standing two deep and drooling all over the place they then walk away. Marnie and I can't figure it out. We have everything going. A good product. Lots of chatting. 2 Grey haired old bods. Stupid Sport. At the next show I am going to cover my face in a white makeup and sit in a chair and do some trembling, wheezing and coughing. We let you know the results. Graham ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:35:49 -0700 Subject: [Baren 756] Re: newbie tip Ray wrote. >You are 100% correct "for your experience" but there is one flaw in your >arguement. Of course the cost over the long run is not all that expensive. > The point I would make is it is the "getting started" expense that is >high. $50 for a brush? $80 for sharkskin?, $60 for a gouge?, etc. Give'm hell Ray. $50 buck for what looks like a shoe brush is sure expensive. I won't even bring in the cost of that little 6" disc of paper machi and bamboo thingy. !!!! Graham ps Mind you I wouldn't want to do this sport, like I am, without that equipment. ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:47:18 -0700 Subject: [Baren 757] Re: Baren Digest V3 #154 Gayle wrote.... >I don't have >the pigments yet and my one try at it with plain watercolors I use a water suspended colourant for my pigments. Compared to all else on the market .. even Powder pigments .. they are much easier to handle. They are light fast and perfect for this sport. I had the chance to compare them to waterbase inks coming out of someplace in New Jersey. No contest what so ever. Mine are twice as intense and far more saturated in colour. I buy them locally. I will check to see this guy will supply them in small lots retail if anybody is interested. Graham ------------------------------ From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:54:55 -0600 Subject: [Baren 758] Enough is ENOUGH! All this talk about tools, prices, options, shoe brushes,,,,, it's driving me crazy!. I think Ray's shoe-brush option is great! I agree with Graham & Dave that technique and artistic impetus is more important than what kind of tools you have and how much you paid for them. Good composition and good technique will usually shine thru even when using cheaper tools. In the other hand, one should always purchase the very best tools affordable. But never at the expense of letting your ideas rot while you are waiting for that $600 baren to arrive from Japan (or wherever!). I live by one motto when it comes to my art: STRADIVARIOUS MADE NEW VIOLINS! Think about it !. The man was building violins into his nineties, using local woods, homemade varnishes and all the while perfecting his technique. His best work are those cellos & violins made after his seventieth birthday. All the millions of people who have struggled to find and recapture the secret of STRADIVARI miss the point. It's the man and his genius! Not the tools, not the woods, not the varnish!. It's the perseverance, the work ethic, the experimentation, the ability to learn from your successes as well as from your failures. Japanese artists of the 1800's used the tools and supplies locally available to them. Had they lived in Europe,,,they would be using other locally available tools. Probably pretty hard to find bamboo skins in England or France! Did you know that some of the current Japanese paper-makers import their raw hosho fibers from China ? That the land in Japan is so valuable that it does not pay to be planting large acreages of hosho bushes ? Nothing wrong with trying to imitate technique, tool usage & supplies when working on projects such as Dave's that have a link to the past. It just seems very silly to me to sit around and be waiting for tools & supplies (that are locally available) so I can carve out a modern piece or a portrait of my dog, etc.. Matt can back me up on this: For every wood project I have ever worked on....there are many several ways to go about putting it together. You can buy new wood, you can recycle old wood, you can use wood alternatives...etc. You can cut them with a table-saw, or with a band-saw or with a hand-saw. You can glue them, screw them or nail them. You can use a zillion of different joint types. You can stain them, you can varnish them, you can paint them or you can leave them et-natural. What's important is technique. Technique is obtained by doing...not by reading, not by waiting for supplies, not by dreaming about cherry-blocks and hand-made paper and $600 barens. Sorry if this ran long, hopefully I did not offend any baren members...but I wanted to express my views. Thanks. JULIO ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:15:22 -0400 Subject: [Baren 759] Re: Enough is ENOUGH! Julio wrote: >All this talk about tools, prices, options, shoe brushes,,,,, it's driving me >crazy!. Short drive??? :>) >I think Ray's shoe-brush option is great! Of course it is!!!!! >Sorry if this ran long, hopefully I did not offend any baren members...but I >wanted to express my views. Go ahead and offend. It livens the place up. One of the great things about Baren is that you can say your piece and no one gets upset as long as the language is correct. Hell, if everyone can put up with Graham and me, they can put up with anyone. :>) Cheers Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:41:21 +0900 Subject: [Baren 760] Re: expensive? Ray wrote: > I wanted to show that you could do it on a shoestring, produce some decent > work, gain experience and then purchase your better materials piece by > piece, tool by tool. Ray, I'm not against this at all ... and indeed, this is _exactly_ how I've proceeded over the years. I didn't even get my first 'real' baren until after I had been making a living at printmaking for a couple of years. Up until then I had been using plastic models, along with rice scoops. The pigments had come out of my kids' watercolour sets ... I'm with you and Julio on this - _doing_ is the important thing. I simply wanted to try and resist the 'expensive' idea ... *** Julio wrote: > Did you know that some of the current Japanese >paper-makers import their raw hosho fibers from China ? That the land in Japan >is so valuable that it does not pay to be planting large acreages of hosho >bushes ? I'm with you a thousand percent on your main points Julio, but may I make a small 'correction' on a couple of things? Some of the paper makers have recently been importing their 'kozo' from China (mostly Taiwan). A lot of this started about four years ago when Japan had such a wet summer that the crop here failed almost entirely. Papermakers had to either import or stop making paper during the following winter. Such imports have continued, for another reason. Mr. Teruo Souma, the largest 'kozo' supplier here in Japan, tells me that the single biggest thing holding back the production of kozo fibre here, is not land acquisition, but labour. Many of the farms in his district are abandoned to 'waste' land, as the rural young people are all leaving for the cities. He has his pick of whatever land he wants to use, just by paying a nominal rent for it. He could grow enough kozo to provide the world supply for making 'hosho' paper ten times over. He _could_, if he could find people willing to do the work of harvesting, steaming, stripping, racking, etc. And most of all, if he could find people willing to do the extremely boring job of stripping off and separating the dark unwanted portions of the bark. It's labour that's the problem ... not land. (There are some photos of this process in the Encyclopedia (Personal Face of Printmaking / Visits to Printmakers / Mr. Teruo Souma) Dave B. ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:37:20 -0700 Subject: [Baren 761] Re: Enough is ENOUGH! >All this talk about tools, prices, options, shoe brushes,,,,, it's driving me >crazy!. I think Ray's shoe-brush option is great! I agree with Graham & Dave >that technique and artistic impetus is more important than what kind of tools >you have and how much you paid for them. Good composition and good technique >will usually shine thru even when using cheaper tools. Bang on Julio. Bang on. Graham ------------------------------ From: April Vollmer & John Yamaguchi Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:06:39 -0400 Subject: [Baren 762] You decide! I agree with Dave as far as editioning....it's the decision of the artist what's fair to include in the edition. And when the proofing is over, how much variation is acceptable within an edition. Color variation, paper kinds, minor mistakes. I feel the labeling is for convenience, to be INFORMATIVE, not to restrict you....so if you decide to pull a second edition from the same blocks, or recut blocks, the important thing is to figure out a way to say that on the print. I sometimes do prints in different color variations....I differentiate between the two editions by putting the color in parenthesis after the title...I don't know if that's very 'official' but it reminds me what I did, and lets any buyers know how may other prints were done. Also, don't you other hanga printers find that hanga is really MADE to be editioned? I never feel that I get the block really saturated with color, and printing right, until I do an edition of twenty or so....once I figure out how to print them, then I'm satisfied, and don't usually print many more than that. How big are your editions? And how uniform? And now that my show is up, and I wrote my pricelist, how do you price prints? I found it very difficult to decide. Gary and Graham seem to have given this problem some thought...are you able to sell many prints at the prices on your websites? April Vollmer ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:42:20 -0400 Subject: [Baren 763] You decide! April, I can't speak for Graham, but the website has not proven to be a marketplace. Perhaps my presentation is wrong, or the fact I'm not set up for credit cards deters possible buyers. My pricing was fixed by this method. I figured my costs and time per print. Since I did limited editions with these I am able to figure out quite easily how much I need to get from each print to recoup my costs. I_do_ sell them through several museums in Hawaii which then have their own mark-up, and even with that mark up they manage to sell them fairly regularly. Not being a good practice to undercut the folks selling them for you, I then priced my website prints at the price they sell them for. That's it. What works in the museums obviously doesn't work on the web. Anyone know a better website strategy? Gary ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V3 #155 ***************************