[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest               Thursday, 9 April 1998       Volume 03 : Number 121

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:16:53 -0400
Subject: [Baren 579] Re: Encyclopedia update ... 

Dave wrote:
>Are you getting bored with my repeated 'update' notices ...?

Of course not

>Please let me know if the 'navigation' between  ...  the Encyclopedia
>outline - the Library section - the book Contents page - and the book
>itself ... is at all confusing.

Not confusing in the least.  Navigation is no problem.  Actually, I never
use the "little blue navigation notice" anyway and would just as soon not
have it there at all.

Great addition.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:17:24 -0700
Subject: [Baren 580] Re: Exhibition idea 

>Your comments are appreciated and I hope will lead to others jumping in.  

Give 'em hell Ray, give 'em hell.  (<:    (<:   (<:

Well it seems to me that you have pretty well thought this thing out.
I was kind of cool on the snap to frames and them being black, however on
second thought think it would work. I would suggest that maybe a standard
gold frame would all so work.  Also it has been my experience that the gold
does not show the scratches as much as black.  This would be something to
consider. The Neilson frame #15 I am sure is pretty universal (what about
Japan Dave).  As far as the frames all being the same size I can see that
working.   None of my prints are the standard Japanese size as:
CHUBAN  Print size approx 10 x 7 1/2" (26 x 19cm)
OBAN  Standard print approx 15" x 10" (39 x 26cm)
TANZUKU  Narrow strip print 15" x 5"  (38 x 13 cm)
However I can probably fine a size that would fit.  The only trouble it may
not the one that has most appeal. Cross that bridge when we get to it.

Plexiglass is definitely the answer.

Work load...... matters not what you say it will be work and you are to be
commended for taking this on.  Mind you, being a committee of one you won't
have to spend time at meetings to discuss and natter about the project so
this will save you hundreds of hours of frustration.

Go for it buddy.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:17:27 -0700
Subject: [Baren 581] Yamoto 

Hi Gayle

The paste I use is called Yamoto.  If this is what you have ordered use it
with confidence. Works like a whistle.

Graham

Oh and don't be nervous about you print.
Go at it as if it were an experiment.  If it works your laughing. If it
doesn't you will have learned something.

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:17:30 -0700
Subject: [Baren 582] Re: Ray's idea 

 The differences in $$$ between Grahams, Dan, Dave's  and Matt's work is
>quite a wide spectrum.

I don't think this matters.  Art is priced according to the:
a.   Demand
b.   Artist reputation
c.   Scarcity

and I bet you I have miss a category.

Ray wrote
>Forget pricing.
We WILL NOT offer art for sale.  It will be an exhibition series only.  I
will provide artists names and addresses (including e-mail and web sites if
applicable) for all locations so that if someone wanted to buy a work or
learn more about a particular artist.

I don't like this idea Ray.  I for one think they should be priced.

I do like the idea of including our web sites and e-mail addresses.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:17:33 -0700
Subject: [Baren 583] My Prices 

 Ray wrote,
>and Graham, $1,500, that is their business.

Geez....I wish.

Graham

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:27:39 -0400
Subject: [Baren 584] Re: Exhibition idea <199804051716.CAA58546@ml.asahi-net.or.jp> 

Graham wrote:
>Give 'em hell Ray, give 'em hell.  (<:    (<:   (<:

Nahhh.  A little heck many.

My last post on frames has not receive any responses but even I am having
second thoughts.  The idea is okay as long as there are no prints with
embossing or other raised areas since poster frames have no depth.  I think
I blew this one.  I am working on one other idea and will share itwith you
when I have some data.  (BTW-I like the gold frames too)

>Plexiglass is definitely the answer.

I agree

>Work load...... matters not what you say it will be work and you are to be
>commended for taking this on.  Mind you, being a committee of one you
>won't have to spend time at meetings to discuss and natter about the project 
>so this will save you hundreds of hours of frustration.

Amen

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:21:49 -0400
Subject: [Baren 585] Re: Ray's idea 

Graham wrote:
>I don't like this idea Ray.  I for one think they should be priced.

I am going to disagree with you.  My reasoning has nothing to do with
Julio's comments since I agree with your response to him.  The more I
thought about it however, I got to thinking of the effect showing prices
might have on some of the locations.  If the exhibition ever comes across
as a money grab, we will lose.

By keeping the exhibition pure and never mentioning money, we come across
as an organization that wants to promote Japanese and other wood block
arts.  I can sell this a whole lot easier.  

And don't forget.  Everything I will do reflect's not only on each of the
artist but on Baren.  Baren is gaining a reputations and that should be
protected.  Artists should be protected also.  I believe my approach
answers all these concerns and still leaves open the possibility of artists
making sales directly to the public.

If you continue to disagree, please share your views with us.

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:47:05 -0400
Subject: [Baren 586] Exhibition Theme 

I have not discussed the theme I have developed because we had so much to
get clear if I was to go ahead.  I still do not have clearance for the show
but I thought you might like to see, and hope you would like it, the theme.

In addition to individual tags for each print, I plan on designing a large
info sheet on mat board.

TITLE:  How The Internet Promotes Traditional Arts

The theme is that while most people think of the I-net as producing "new
era"  digital art, it is also a great vehicle for protecting, promoting and
expanding traditional arts.

Baren is an example.  The info would explain Baren, how it was founded, its
aims and how it has brought together artists from around the world, a group
of individuals who even though they have never met each other, have become
friends and easily give assistance, advice and encouragement to each other.
 In fact, they are such good friends, they ever toss little sarcasms back
and forth once in a while.  :>)

This use of the Internet to continue the art of wood blocks is unique but
will be duplicated as other areas of art learn how to use modern vehicles
to promote their fields of art.

*****************

I have not completed the script but you will get the flavor of it from the
above.  Let's not forget who we are dealing with.  Curators and museum
directors need to have something to fall back on, something they can get
hold of.  We are talking, to a large extent, academics.  Give them a theme
they can grab and my selling job is much easier.  If I can bring to a
curator a complete show, along with a fully developed theme, not just a
stack of pictures, I also make their life easier.  Everyone likes to take
the easy way out if possible.  Let's give it to them.

(This is also why I no longer want to list prices.)

Comments?

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:20:21 +0900
Subject: [Baren 587] Ray's idea ... 

Ray, may I bring up a point about your exhibition idea?

You said:
> My last post ... has not receive any responses ...

How many prints does it take to make an 'exhibition'?  How many members
of [Baren] are actually making prints?  So far, I have seen actual
examples of work only from:
Graham, Matt, Gary, Jean, April, James and now Gayle ...   Am I
forgetting anybody?  

Current [Baren] membership stands at 25 (one new subscriber joined this
morning), and of those 25, we have seen prints from eight.  Some of the
other members perhaps haven't had a place to show us their work yet, but
it may be that many of them are simply people with an interest in
woodblock printmaking, but not so active with knives and barens.  That
is what I would expect from a discussion group like this - a complete
spectrum of interests in the craft.

So perhaps one reason why there have not been a great many replies to
your idea, is that it may be a bit premature.  [Baren] is, I think,
perhaps still too small to be considering an exhibition.

Dave

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:30:59 -0400
Subject: [Baren 588] Re: Ray's idea ... 

Dave wrote:
>Ray, may I bring up a point about your exhibition idea?

Somewhat taken out of context, in that I was speaking about the subject of
frames was just now being discussed and responses would not arrive for a
day or two.

>How many prints does it take to make an 'exhibition'?  etc.

All excellent points and ones that should, like everything else, be given
full consideration.

>[Baren] is, I think,
>perhaps still too small to be considering an exhibition.

As always, you cut to the quick.  Your observations are certainly wise ones
but I guess the only way we will know is to take a poll.  The ones you
list, plus you and I, assuming everyone decides to join in, gives us 9
participants.  I was looking for a minimum of ten.  If there is a
lookie-loo out there who wants to join in, then we have ten.  

Dave, this idea may just die because no one wants to join in.  So be it.
But if anyone thinks for one minute that I am going to cease persuing the
idea, that person does not know me very well.  I like the idea.  I think
the idea is workable.  I think the idea can benefit the artists and benefit
Baren.  The only way this idea will not work is if enough artists do not
join in.  That's the ONLY thing over which I have no control.

If everyone thinks it is premature, it will die.  If not, it will be a
winner.  I await only the vote of members.

BUT

In keeping with the ideas that all ideas could be improved, permit me to
propose a totally different approach.  As most of you experienced artists
know, and has been pointed out during this discussion, you do not set up
such a show overnight.  The University of Central Florida Art Gallery,
which gave tentative approval, could only give dates in 2000, two years away.

I anticipate this will be a common theme.  The time to begin planning is
now.  If we wait until we have 100 members and can pick and choice the
participants, it will be 2000 and we would not get any shows until 2004.  I
am too damn old to blow off two years that easily.

So, I will turn 90 degrees and adjust my thinking.

Perhaps the way to satisfy everyone is to consider a two pronged approach.

1.   Get Baren member commitments for the major museum/gallery shows that
would not take place until 2000 or later from existing and new members as
they join.  In other words, I will introduce them to the exhibitions as we
welcome them to Baren.  Let me know this is what you want to do and I will
do the work to get it done.  And a damn lot of work will have to be put
into it.  I will spend the next two years just setting up as many dates as
possible to begin in the year 2000.  In the meantime, Baren will grow and
we will add enough good artists to make it a successful exhibition.

2.  While we are waiting for the "major" exhibition schedule to begin,
those interested in joining me today in a "minor" exhibition schedule can
do so.  If perhaps seven join in, we would have fourteen prints which would
make for a nice show in restaurants, hotels, city halls, etc.  And although
I am adamant that the major show not include prices, this show would
include prices and encourages sales.  (Happy Graham?  :>) :>))

As a special bonus for those joining the minor circuit, when the major
exhibition series begins, they will be allowed an extra print each in the
'big shows".  In other words, minor exhibition members would have three
prints to show, while others have just two.  In major museums, this could
be important.

And Finally:

Let me get something off my chest now and we can put it to bed forever.  I
do not want to hear any more about how damn difficult this is.  The only
difficult thing in life is the lack of balls to try (excuse me ladies).  I
have been putting together major projects and companies for 35 years and
listening to people tell me this or that was not possible.  The only time
failure is a negative is when you fail to learn from it.  If you fall on
your ass, you get back up, figure out what and how you screwed up, and
start all over.  I  was told I would lose every penny I had if I went into
Oklahoma oil wells.  1.3 million later, they were right.  I was
broke....again....for the third time.  So I raised another 2 million,
drilled more holes, gave everyone back their money and walked away with
$200 in my pockets.  I loved every minute of it.  

If this turns out to be a total failure, no artist will be damaged.  I will
take all of the heat.  If I had listened to people tell me what I could not
do over the years, I would still be packing gorceries or pumping gas.  I do
not believe in failure.  Don't talk to me about why things can't be done.
Tell me how to do them.  End of  lecture.

(And I really do love each and every one of you.)

Cheers

Ray Esposito

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From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:54:44 -0600
Subject: [Baren 589] More on Ray's Exhibition 

Perhaps I was misunderstood.  I am not against pricing the prints. I agree with 
both Graham's & Rays ideas (all except the part about the phoneless cord, good 
one Graham !). I was just concerned that an exhibit showcasing woodblock prints 
with a wide range of prices might confuse the public. I would venture to say 
that 80 years ago, 75-90% of all commercial art was probably done via 
woodblocks or wood engravings. Now a days there is not much commercial work 
being done this way ( 1% or less ?). I would see this "traveling" exhibit as a 
way to enlighthen the public on the ways of this neglected art form. One 
suggestion if I may, is to include in the exhibit a  
"how-a-woodblock-print-is-made-step-by-step" series of photographs to accompany 
Ray's introduction & artist info. Short of having Dave be present to do one of 
his demos (just kidding dave!); perhaps one of the contributing members can 
photograph their art work...step-by-step, block-by-color block and send those 
photos to Ray for inclusion with the actual print. An alternative to 
photographs could be a series of clear-thru overlays (one for each color block 
) that the public can page thru and sort of see the print come to life 
step-by-step. Too complicated ?

Julio

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:04:24 -0700
Subject: [Baren 590] Re: More on Ray's Exhibition 

Julio wrote,

>I would see this "traveling" exhibit as a
>way to enlighthen the public on the ways of this neglected art form.

EDUCATION You got that right Julio.
I am seeing more and more the Iris Print crap....ops sorry......CRAP  (now
I feel better) being promoted and scamming people into thinking they are
valuable art forms.
As most of you know I am dedicated to exposing this new technology for what
it is...... (Calm down Graham, calm down)
But we must endeavour to educate John Q about the real thing.

>One suggestion if I may, is to include in the exhibit a
>"how-a-woodblock-print-is-made-step-by-step" series of photographs 

I have made a large story board showing step by step as you suggest.  It
took a fair amount of work but was very effective.  What about a slide
presentation that goes into a slide projector and just keeps repeating.
Just thinking out loud.  What ever it is it must be easy for Ray to handle.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:04:18 -0700
Subject: [Baren 591] Re: Ray's idea 

Ray

You make some very convincing and logical points and I cannot disagree with
you thinking.
After all if you have a show in an public gallery there are no prices.
As a matter of fact they don't even encourage sales.

Yes the posting of e-mail and URL is all that would be necessary to keep
this a classy presentation.

The need of a Theme is good and will certainly open doors - and maybe some
important ones at that.  After all what we are doing is not doodle art and
if you guys are like me you will have a sense of contributing to Art in you
region and or Country.  My subjects have never been done before in a
complete series.

TITLE:  How The Internet Promotes Traditional Arts

Hummmm .... Here is a couple of suggestions that may have more punch.

	Traditional Arts via the Net
	Digitizing Traditional Arts
	Ancient Arts via the Information Highway
	Traditional Arts via the Information Highway
	Woodblocks via the Information Highway
	Woodblocks via the Net
	Woodblocks via the Information Highway

What do we hear for others?

Graham

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End of Baren Digest V3 #121
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