[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest              Monday, 9 February 1998      Volume 02 : Number 064

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From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:01:24 -0600
Subject: [Baren 350] Papers; Thanks 

Thanks Dave, Graham & Phil for all the responses on the papers.....
 
The local art store is only a few blocks away so I will go ahead and try some 
of the Mulberry stock ( at $6.00 a sheet) and let you know my results.
Graham/Dave:  I did not realize hand-made paper was so expensive  $32- $58 a 
sheet ! But since you guys are professional printmakers it is understandable 
that you must print on the best available papers.  I wonder how much $$$ goes 
into the middle-man's pocket and how much does the paper-maker actually gets ? 
>From what I read on dave's story about paper making,  these people are just 
ordinary folks making a living at a craft they excel at.....do they know how 
much their paper sells for  in the U.S.A.? 

Julio

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From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:30:28 -0600
Subject: [Baren 351] Warp Speed ahead, Mr. Scott ! 

Graham writes:
>For the record: any solid wood less than 3/4" thick (unless it is a
>tiny block), is going to warp a great deal under the uneven moisture of
>printing...... I mention I only print a limited number of sheets.Well this is
> also to prevent getting the wood so moisture laden that it starts to swell
> to a point that it will cause a permanent warp to occur.

Is there any history on "wetting" the other side of the block after printing is 
done....?
Would moisture on both sides of the block cancel each other out ?

When I use fine veneers to cover a piece....I normally (if the wood is less 
than 3/4" thin) have to glue an inexpensive veneer on the "bad" side of my 
piece in order to keep the wood from eventually warping.....

I know water & wood are not a good mix.....just a thought ! 

Julio

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:14:34 -0800
Subject: [Baren 352] Re: Papers; Thanks 

Julio wrote......
>But since you guys are professional printmakers it is understandable
>that you must print on the best available papers.

The folks at Japanese Paper in Toronto advised.
If you don't print on the best Hosho then you will not attract serious
collectors. No sense excluding a potential market.


> I wonder how much $$$ goes into the middle-man's pocket and how much does
>the paper-maker actually gets ?

10 % goes to the middle man in my case.   The rest goes to the papermaker.
Of this I am sure. Oh there is also some duty and shipping costs involved.
I made a typo in by $32.00 figure.   The last was 24.00  still a healthy
wack of money.

>Would moisture on both sides of the block cancel each other

Hey maybe.  It may be worth a try, however I don't like to add more
moisture that absolutely necessary .
I also know about cutting a vertical strips that have a tongue to fit in
the grove down the end grain sides of the plate.  This is attached -only-
in the centre which allows the plate to expand and contract as the moisture
changes.
It is the definitive asnser to warping but I don't like the looks ...there
goes tradition getting in the way again.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:19:17 -0800
Subject: [Baren 353] Re: Home Page update ... 

Dave wrote
>I'd also like a favour: I've put a little bit about wood in this new
>page, but I need some info on Basswood, Pine, and any other woods you
>are using.  I

Dave,  I haven't had a chance to sit and attend this request.  I will but
at this time of year I go like stink to get as much work done as possible in
the studio.
The good weather is coming and with the gardening and other outside
features around here I like to be there and enjoying.   So hang in there I
will get to it if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

Graham

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From: Matthew.W.Brown@VALLEY.NET (Matthew W Brown)
Date: 08 Feb 98 20:12:37 EST
Subject: [Baren 354] Re:Paper 

Julio: >Would moisture on both sides of the block cancel each other out ?

Yes it should.

On papers: I used a lot of what I think is the mulberry Julio  described when I
was getting started (Daniel Smith sells it as 'mulberry'). Actually I think
much of it is 'handmade' but found that lots of the sheets (though not all)
would be just a bit too thin to stand up to the woodblock printing needs. A
paper D. Smith sells that I found better was one thay call "Kochi". Most of
these papers come unsized, so that also introduces challenges for starting out. 
	Another route to follow is to realize that you'll be doing lots of
experimenting and proofing tackling problems of registration, color, printing
practice, not to mention getting the image you want and what you print on
doesn't matter too much at first. Dave may disagree with this but remember,
once you have logged some hours tackling these other issues your blocks and
colors will always be waiting to really 'shine' on some good paper when you do
eventually get it.
	I eventually settled on the french-made  printmaking paper Rives
Lightweight and Rives Heavyweight, for my printing and have been  happy about
all the money saved. No additional sizing required and totally consisitent in
quality. I have sold hundreds of prints on this paper. 

Matt 

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:44:08 -0500
Subject: [Baren 355] Re:Paper 

Julio et al,

   Just a thought from a non-printer, but if you carve on both sides of a 
block, and print from both sides of the block, wouldn't the
moisture/warpage even it out?   Hey, what do I know?

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:37:06 -0800
Subject: [Baren 356] Block warping 

>Julio et al,
>   Just a thought from a non-printer, but if you carve on both sides of a
>block, and print from both sides of the block, wouldn't the
>moisture/warpage even it out?   Hey, what do I know?

Yes but I always plan the images so that I don't have to print the other
side of the block immediately after printing one side.  I always dry the
one side. befoere moving on.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:20:55 -0800
Subject: [Baren 357] Re:Paper 

>Matt wrote:
> I eventually settled on the french-made  printmaking paper Rives
> Lightweight and Rives Heavyweight,

I am familiar with the Rives paper but not as you described it.
Can you supply a little more information? There is nothing in my catalogues
showing it as heavyweight etc.

I know of BFK Rives and it comes in assorted colours  White, Grey, and
Cream and in assorted gsm weights.  175, 180, 210, 250, 270, 300.
I have tried printing these but too grainy so resulting in speckled colour.
(lots of white specs).  They can be used on a press, as the press with its
pressure, forces the colour into the depressions of the paper.

I have tried Arches Cover #88 with similar problems as above. This was a
piece of paper I found in my goodies box and can't remember how long I have
had it.

There are Vabriano Printmaking papers  "Pescia" is the name and is
advertised as being for woodcuts along with lithography, etchings, and
silkscreen.  Very often when a product is promoted to handle everything
(the whole nine yards PR) it is possibly not good for one or the other.

So I would be very interested in more info about the Rives and see it it is
available here in Lotus land.

Graham

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From: julio.rodriguez@walgreens.com
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:31:02 -0600
Subject: [Baren 358] More ? about papers.... 

Thanks to everyone for the quick responses on the subject of papers.....

Is there a quick/easy  way to tell wether a paper is sized or not ?  I mean 
when you are at the store....

Matt/Graham: Can you elaborate more on your experiences with non-japanese 
papers...such as Rives & Arches....are these printable (pigment is absorved and 
not just floats) and can they be used to "learn"  ??  How do you wet these 
papers & for how long ? At what point are they ready for printing ?

Julio

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:49:06 -0800
Subject: [Baren 359] Printing grain of wood 

Has anybody any experience with the method of print and getting the grain
of the wood to represent what ever.
Could be clouds or water or just an abstract design.

I did it on a very small 5 x 3 thing  'Fisher"  you can find this on my site.
http://www.islandnet.com/~gscholes/otherprints.html
To get this I actually carved away the material of the wood grain.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:02:16 -0800
Subject: [Baren 360] Re: More ? about papers.... 

Julio wrote.
>
>Is there a quick/easy  way to tell wether a paper is sized or not ?  I mean
>when you are at the store....

I don't know


>Matt/Graham: Can you elaborate more on your experiences with non-japanese
>papers...such as Rives & Arches....are these printable (pigment is
>absorved and
>not just floats) and can they be used to "learn"  ??  How do you wet these
>papers & for how long ? At what point are they ready for printing ?

To get the best results with BFK Rives you have to soak it for a day and
them lay the sheets between blotting paper over night, to remove some of
the moisture.  It will then be softer and, if a small enough plate can
press hard with baren to prevent the speckle of white paper showing.   If
you use a big plate you must run dampened paper through a press to flatten
it out before you get a smooth enough surface to print with the baren.
Noboru told me you have to do this twice.

Thanks but I will buy and use the real stuff.  .....Hosho....

Graham

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:11:25 +0900
Subject: [Baren 361] Re: Paper, block warping ... 

Julio wrote:
> I did not realize hand-made paper was so expensive  
> $32- $58 a sheet! 

Actually I think this conversation has gone into a bit of a misleading
direction.  I certainly can't speak of what happens to paper once it
goes overseas and around and around different wholesalers and shops
etc., but in my case here, things are neither so complicated nor
expensive.

I order my paper directly from the men who make it.  I specify such
things as thickness, dimensions, material (for me it's 100% kozo - a
50-50 kozo/pulp mix is also common here),etc.  My most recent orders
have been from the man considered the absolute top papermaker in the
country for printmaking papers - Mr. Ichibei Iwano.  He is one of those
few people who have been recognized as a 'Living National Treasure'. 
This guy is good - very very good.  It's not right that _I_ praise him
so highly, because I'm far from understanding all that there is to know
about paper, but anyway, it's good stuff!

His most recent invoice to me was for 500 sheets at 630 yen per sheet
(that's for sheets about 420 x 550mm).  What's that in US$ ... about
$5.10?   On top of this I pay 5% sales tax, 60 yen to Misawa-san for
subsequent sizing, and about 3,000 yen to get whole crate (500 sheets)
shipped to my place.  

Expensive?   For the best damn paper in the world?  I don't think so.

> I wonder how much $$$ goes into the middle-man's pocket 
> and how much does the paper-maker actually get?

Every yen of it!

*****

> A paper D. Smith sells that I found better was one 
> they call "Kochi". 

Kochi is the name of one of the prefectures in Japan, quite famous for
paper-making.  Many many different types of paper come from there, and
some wholesaler here must have just stuck the word 'kochi' on some
particular batch going to Smith.  It doesn't really mean much by itself...  
If Smith keeps buying the same stuff from the same place and using
the same name, then you can get used to that paper, but the name 'kochi'
won't be transferable to any kind of paper you find from a different
route.

Matt said:
> Another route to follow is to realize that you'll 
> be doing lots of experimenting and proofing ...

> Dave may disagree with this ...

Not at all.  It does certainly seem a waste to use top-quality paper for
'training'.  But there is a trade-off here - the poor results obtained
by using an inferior paper won't help one improve much either.

I think a middle ground is best.  By all means a beginner printmaker
should use _anything_ for his first attempts - cheap photocopy paper,
newsprint, _anything_, until you've got the basic movements and routine
basically figured out.  Then find a relatively inexpensive but
reasonably good paper to work with for your experiments.  A lot of the
stuff in D Smith's catalogue is fine for this, and some of those sheets
he lists are extremely large in size - once you've chopped them up the
'cost per proof' is very low indeed.  

Then, when you've got some experience under your belt, buy some good
hosho and go from there. If you really are serious about this, your
skills will improve and you will soon come to understand what that paper
can do for you.

*****

Julio wrote:
> Is there any history on "wetting" the other side of the 
> block after printing is done....?

Wetting the other side of the block is very much a standard part of the
printmaking procedure (for those of using using solid blocks).  Because
most of my own printing work is done on new freshly-carved blocks, it's
not something I have to do every time, but whenever I pull some of my
old blocks out of the closet for reprinting, I also have to get out the
kettle and rags ...

Any block that has become bowed can be flattened by applying a rag
soaked in warm water to the 'cupped' side and waiting for the water to
soak in and have an effect.  You have to get the timing right.  If you
keep the rag there until the board is nice and flat - you've waited too
long.  Water will continue to expand the block even after the rag has
been removed, and you'll end up with a 'arch' instead. Each block
responds differently to the treatment.  You've got to watch the process
and take the rag off and wipe the board _before_ you get to where you
want to be.

Both sides of these blocks are usually carved, so it sometimes becomes a
very intricate game - soaking one while you're printing another, trying
to figure out which one to print next - back side or front - cup or arch ...  

Putting water on the side underneath the one currently being printed
sometimes helps to keep it flat, but that's actually a bit of an
illusion.  With water going on both sides, the block may stay _flat_,
but what it really is doing is expanding on both sides, and getting
wider in the process.

With old and thin blocks it can be a nightmare.  It helps a lot to work
as fast as possible, expecially on the key block, to minimize the
difference between prints in a batch.  On one of my very first visits to
Matsuzaki-san the printer, many years ago, he was printing a thin warped
key block.  I showed up unannounced and he (a very polite
gentleman-type) stopped work and turned to chat with me.  I had no clue
as to what was going on - that he desperately wanted to get that block
finished before it warped much further.  

His wife finally took her courage in hand and suggested to me that
'perhaps I'd like to watch while he continued working ...?'  He
gratefully went back to the job, and after watching him roar through the
stack of paper for a while the 'penny dropped' and I figured out what
had been going on.  He must have been sitting there with ants in his
pants being polite and sipping tea ... and all the while thinking about
that block curving up into an arch ...

*****

Graham added:
> I also know about cutting a vertical strips that 
> have a tongue to fit in the grove down the end 
> grain sides of the plate.  

These are standard practice here.  They are called 'hashibame'.  In the
old days (back a couple of decades) a tongue and groove was carefully
chiseled out as Graham describes, but it's been a long time now since
the block-maker has been willing to do that.  He now slaps them on with
four nails.  No expansion is possible, and the nail holes later develop
into end-grain cracks.  These guys are not so concerned about 'later' ...

The strips sometimes have to be ripped off and thrown away.  The board
warped anyway, and with the hashibame in place it becomes nearly
impossible to fix the warp with rags and water ...

*****

Somebody said:
> I know water & wood are not a good mix ... just a thought! 

Actually I think that's the wrong approach ...  Water is an integral
part of our job - water in the paper, on the block, and in the pigment. 
With judicious use of water, those blocks will stand up and dance if you
want them to!  I'm perhaps a bit young to be saying this, but I'm sure
that those older guys would tell you - don't fight against it - _use_
it!

Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:11:06 +0900
Subject: [Baren 362] Re: Sized? 

Julio wrote.
> Is there a quick/easy way to tell whether a paper 
> is sized or not?  I mean when you are at the store....

I can't speak for western papers, but for Japapese papers there is an
easy way.  (You may want to wait until the storekeeper is looking the
other way ...)  Stick one corner of the paper in your mouth and get it
good and wet - quite a good slobber.  Then rub the wet place between
your fingers.  If it is unsized, fibres will readily come away from the
surface.  If sized, they will not pull up so easily.  

The way that the 'water' is absorbed will also be different.  Unsized
paper is like blotting paper, and the water will spread out.  With sized
paper this will be greatly reduced.

A little bit of experience should be enough to get you to the stage
where you can tell the difference ...

But don't blame me if they kick you out of the store!

Dave

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End of Baren Digest V2 #64
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