[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking. Baren Digest Thursday, 29 January 1998 Volume 02 : Number 053 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:49:37 -0500 Subject: [Baren 269] Re: wood II Gary wrote: > Let me put in my disclaimer prior to making a suggestion. I am not a >carver, or for that matter, a printer. ......... > I have my prints carved >and printed by a person out East who is accustomed to using shina, and I >believe the results are quite satisfactory. This brings up one of those $5 questions Dave likes to tickle me about. (You guys do not see the private posts I send to Dave or you would understand how patient this man is.) I have hated to ask this question because I do not want to sound insulting to anyone. This has been on my mind for some time. I hope the wording is okay because I think of all of you as my friends. Here we go. When I think of wood block carving, be it Japanese or western, I imagine myself cutting and preparing the block; using a drawing on glued paper or black ink directly on the block; taking appropriate knives and cutters in hand and working on the block; mixing pigments or taking paint from a tube; inking the block, preparing the paper; applying the paper to the block; using the baren to make the impression; pulling the impression; selling or giving away my completed art. I think you all can see where I am going with this. The above is what I visualize wood block is all about. I start and I finish. Gary noted above that his prints are carved and printed by a person out East. I have seen this mentioned time after time by Dave and others. In an early post, when I was writing about getting started, someone, Graham or Matt, suggested I do the artwork and send it to Dave to be worked on. (I forget the exact wording.) Gary, I hope you know I am not be critical or judgemental. I want to learn. Exactly how does all this work? If I complete a drawing but someone else does the cutting and printing, am I the artist? Is my talent limited just to being a drawer or painter? (I hate that choice of words.) If prints were to be signed, should not the person who carved the block be the one to sign if the work is sold as a woodcut? If I am selling a woodcut but have not cut wood, am I the artist or a seller of prints? Have I also read on this forum that some of you do the complete work? If you do, is that considered a "different kind" of wood cutting? I have read Dave's very moving explanation of why he does not like to frame prints because there is more than the artist involved, including carver, printer, baren maker, etc. I understand the philosophical reasoning behind all this. It is the practical that has me totally confuse. (Now we all know why we need the encylopedia.) I really hope I have not insulted anyone. I have great admiration for each and every person on Baren. I just confuse easy and boy...am I confused now. Perhaps if I understood this part of it, a lot of my other questions would fall into place. Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:50:11 -0500 Subject: [Baren 270] Re: wood Gary wrote: > Only made it to Ottawa once myself a few years ago. Sorry I missed you. Once was enough...... Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:36:51 -0500 Subject: [Baren 271] Re: wood II Ray, I know Matt handles wood blocks which he sells, don't you Matt? The supply house I'm familiar with is McClain's in Portland, Oregon. Address is/was: McClain's P.O.Box 40163 Portland, Or 97240-0163 They moved a while back but the last catalog I have here at home is from '95 so I'm not sure if the address is current. They have an 800 number however, so you might call first. It is 800-832-4264. Ask for a catalog. It's a small operation but they are very attentive to their mail-order business and are happy to talk to you over the phone. If you explain what you're interested in and care to charge it, I'm sure they could have it out to you inside a week. I've never seen an e-mail address or website out from them, you might ask if they have one, and if so, let us all know. They handle all manner of the Japanese style woodblock printing supplies including instructional tapes, knives, brushes, barens, paper, glue, plywood, chisels, sharpening stones, etc. They often publish illustration from various woodblock artists in their yearly catalogs, which is interesting. Actually, I'll bet they'd be interested in the Baren Group if they're online. Hope that helps. Gary ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:35:40 -0500 Subject: [Baren 272] Re: wood II Ray, In response to your loaded question of who is the artist, etc. There are different ways of doing this, and probably the Baren Group is as good a cross section of different ideas on this as you're likely to find. There's a long history here and you'd have to bury your nose in David's essays to learn more about it, but to put it briefly, traditional Japanese woodblock printing used separate artisans to contribute each step of the process. Modern 20th century thinking has rolled them all into one, the "artist" who attempts to master all of these steps and thereby take full control and responsibility for his work. That's what Matt and Graham do. David and I represent the "old school", though David carves and prints, and I simply design. There is a trade-off based on various factors which are different for each person. The old school held that each step is an art in itself and artisans apprenticed for years to learn that particular field. David has some wonderful interviews on his web-site with just such people. Matt and Graham, being of the new school, have learned to do these things themselves and do very well at it, but I'm sure they'll tell you it has taken them some time to achieve their present accomplishments and the learning continues, as it does with any artist. When I first became interested in learning more about this type of printing, I had almost nowhere to find this information. What I did find sounded very complicated, and because of my particular circumstances, I was happy to begin designing with the hopes of someday finding someone who knew the process and could either teach me or produce them for me. When I did manage to find someone, he was a thousand miles away, so I opted for the latter. I have not been at this for all that long, and after eventually travelling to visit my printer at his studio as well as see him do demonstrations, I concluded that indeed the skills were not beyond my reach but for the present, the time needed to acquire those skills was not available to me. As I don't have to make a living at this, as some of the others do, I have that luxury as well as that limitation. So, who is the artist? If an artist is one who singlehandedly renders his/her visions into a media, that would be Matt and Graham, and perhaps some others. If the artist is one who designs the print, then we are all artists except for possibly David, who I believe doesn't design. Everyone will have a different opinion about this, I'm sure, and it will essentially lie in each person's definition of "artist". Historically I believe the artist is generally considered the designer, but modern conceptions may differ. As to signing the print, there again, diverse opinions. David embosses his prints with his name, as the printer/carver, as well he should. The fellow who carved and printed my prints is also an "artist" doing his own modern style woodblock prints, and all along he has declined any credit by name as he thought it might confuse his patrons if they saw his name on a different style of work. He wishes to remain anonymous. Shozaburo Watanabe, a famous twentieth century wooblock print publisher, I believe credited his major artisans on the print margin. Hiroshige prints sometimes did as well I think, didn't they Dave? Woodblock printing has had different styles of development coming from all possible angles, and all coming under somewhat the same heading. One is seldom right to exclude all other views. So, no insults taken here. You are a twentieth century artist-in-the- works. You have some latitude to develop your strengths and call yourself whatever you think. Artist, artisan, craftsman, carver, printer, whatever you think appropriate. You'll learn and fine tune it as you go. Mostly these subjects are more opinions than facts anyway. Gary ------------------------------ From: Gary Luedtke Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:38:29 -0500 Subject: [Baren 273] Re: wood Ray, I was only there a few hours, taking a turn about the town as my daughter participated in a singing competition there. I don't think I missed anything. Gary ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:59:21 -0800 Subject: [Baren 274] Re: wood II Hi > As a question out to the general Baren readership, has anyone tried >"Poplar" When you cut across the grain it leaves a fuzzy edge no matter how sharp you tools are, is my experience. > Another consideration with shina plywood vs. solid planks is warpage. >How do the two of these compare in that respect? Anyone used both? I have used both. Shina plywood does not present this situation. Blocks of Basswood do. I have used peice that had a slight warp to start. This did not present a problem in the carving or plate or printing. Once warped always warped. I am not talking a whole big bunch when I say warped. Regards Graham Dave suggested some sizes of blocks. You can't go wrong with 7 x 5 or 10 x 8 or 12 x 9 proportions. (You can tell the age of a person as to whether they use mm or inches.) ------------------------------ From: Graham Scholes Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:59:46 -0800 Subject: [Baren 275] Re: wood II What you want is a piece that is 3/4" to 1" thick. The smaller the image the thinner you can go. You have to be careful not to go too thin as there is a greater possibility of the wood splitting. A 12" width peice of wood is a good size and will give you a image of about 10 1/2 in. x what ever length you decide. The 1 1/2" of stock is used up for boarders and kento marks. If you don't understand this having never seen a block let me know and I will send you a drawing. I would have to know what kind of a computer you have. If it is a Mac then we are laughing. What graphics program have you got. I could formate the image so it would open up with Netscape or Explorer. The wood you discribe as really rough, was rough cut, and not planed smooth. It should look like a planed piece of any other wood. (Pine ie.) Its characteristic is that it has slight grain (not to obvious) and is relatively soft. Stick a fingernail in and is would be similar to pine. That 2" thick piece could be cut with a band saw and them planed with a thickness planer. You would end up with two lovely pieces of wood. I always use both sides of the wood. The delicate and harder cutting depends on the design. Graham ps Since you are not going to read e-mail while on the phone I will make sure I read all postings you make before responding. You have ,I see by the second posting, answers to the questions in your first posting. Now having said all this your postings came in reverse order and read you first last and last first. I hope you follow......because sure has hell I'm lost. Graham ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:10:05 -0500 Subject: [Baren 276] Re: wood II >In response to your loaded question of who is the artist, etc. Gary Thank you for the clearest explanation of the differences I have seen. My mind is now clear. I am sure others may want to add to your thoughts but thank you. I have printed your response and keep it over my work table in my studio. I can't thank you enough for the effort and taking time to do so. Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: Ray Esposito Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:11:36 -0500 Subject: [Baren 277] Re: wood Gary wrote: > I was only there a few hours, taking a turn about the town as my daughter >participated in a singing competition there. I don't think I missed >anything. Me! Ray Esposito ------------------------------ From: David Bull Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:18:33 +0900 Subject: [Baren 278] Re: Encyclopedia Phil wrote: > Dave, I would be willing to help out in whatever capacity. I really don't > know what I can offer being a newbie. I do have a desire to learn a love of > the art and to share with others. What can I do to help? I can think of _one_ idea right off the bat. I really can't remember what it was like to be a 'newbie'. I can't remember much about what sort of problems I encountered, or how I overcame them. (I'm getting reminded a lot though, by many of the [Baren] posts!) How about this: suppose the Encyclopedia outline had a topic like 'Newbie's Journal'. And suppose that, during the process of making one of your prints (your first print?) you kept a kind of journal about the process - what you did, what you got stuck on, and how you solved these glitches. I don't mean a great long literary adventure, but simply something that other 'newbies' could relate to, and that more importantly, they could learn from (that we could _all_ learn from!). Maybe it would appear once a week, and we could follow your 'adventure' ... Interesting? Not so? What do you think? ***** David wrote: >>"What's that Ray, you've got another question about something? >>That'll be five dollars, please ..." Get serious! Ray answered: >Is David, in his inscrutable Japanese/Canadian way trying to "tell" me >something? I do believe I am gaining a reputation. No, I'm not inscrutable at all. I might _live_ in an inscrutable country - just like Ray does - but I think I'm quite open and simple! I never even considered that Ray might take my comment otherwise ... Bring 'em on Ray! ***** Graham wrote: Marnie just asked me "what does Dave do with his spare time" (<: Graham, I thought this was obvious - that's when I make my prints! ***** NOTICE: to those non-members who are following [Baren] discussions by reading the group archives. As I'm going off for a couple of days to do some mountain climbing ('walking!') with Sadako-san, archived digests will not be posted up on the [Baren] Home Page during my absence. If you just can't wait to read all this breathless prose we produce, the posted messages will still be accessible one-by-one from the Majordomo server (see the Home Page for details). (And no, to answer everybody's question before you ask it, I'm NOT taking my laptop with me!) See you later, Dave ------------------------------ End of Baren Digest V2 #53 **************************