[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Thursday, 29 January 1998     Volume 02 : Number 052

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:19:36 -0500
Subject: [Baren 256] Re: 'Beta' testers wanted! 

David wrote:
>Baren members,
>I've been working on something during the past few weeks, and although
>it's certainly not ready yet (it will _never_ be 'ready'), it's time to
>put something up for general testing and for reactions/comments.
>
>I won't explain it here, but will just ask you to hop over and take a
>look at:
>http://www.woodblock.com/encyclopedia/index.html

Dave,
What a great project idea and project is just what it is.  This will take
years to complete.  I suppose this is what an encyclopedia is all about,
growing, changing maturing.  Congratulations on all the work you obviously
have put into it so far.  Considering the talent on Baren, this will
rapidly become one of the most sought sites on the web.  More important
from a personal viewpoint, it will be a fantastic educational tool.  Keep
up the great work.  

Ray

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:21:17 -0500
Subject: [Baren 257] Re: wood 

Gary wrote:
>    I believe a lot of Basswood comes from the northern states, my home
>state of Wisconsin for one.  I used to handle tons of it here in Kansas
>when I worked for a model railroad company, running miles of it through the
>planer.   I believe he got it from Wisconsin.  It is still accessible here
>at some lumber companies but I don't know where they get it from
>specifically.   If you have any specialty woodworking shops around there,
>check with them.   Places that sell woodworking tools might have a
>selection of specialty woods for hobbyists possibly.   If you still come up
>empty, let me know and I'll dig further here.

Gary
Thanks for the info.  I will keep looking.  Why didnn't I know you when I
lived in Ottawa, Kansas?

Ray

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:37:28 -0800
Subject: [Baren 258] Re: Encyclopedia  

Dave, (you devil you)

You know, I was wondering what you were up to.  It has been about a week
since we heard anything significant from you.

I though maybe you were in a funk because of a poor show or something.
How did the show go by the way are you satisfied......Are we ever!!!!

So, I looked in on the new site and this has to be the greatest thing since
sliced bread.  Congratulations on such a great unselfish execution of an
idea.

I have often though of doing a book in a couple of years.  I have a foot in
the door with Watson Guptill in New York and there is very little doubt, in
my mind, that they wouldn't jump at the opportunity of doing a book.  I am
under contract with them and only have to come up with a good subject we
both believe is going to fill a niche in the market.  They wanted me to do
another watercolour book but I could only see it being sort of a 'me too'
type book and I was not interested in a rehash of what I had already stated
in the first book.  A new subject like woodblock prints is very possibly a
winner and I might persue it.  In the meantime this idea of yours is
perfect.  It is very likely that in 20 years reference books will in fact
be on the Net which is, as we know, at the embryo stage.

Anyway I will be contributing stuff for the site.  I am just starting to
print a new piece today so will be tied up for a few days.  Then I want to
get right on to another design before I stand away from the studio.

Marnie just asked me  "what does Dave do with his spare time"   (<:

Cheers

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:45:12 -0800
Subject: [Baren 259] Re: wood 

Morning Ray.

I could easily send you blocks of wood from here BUT
since the stuff comes from Ontario, Quebec, New York State, Vermont,
Pennsylvania, Ohio and maybe so other northern States I see no sense in
doing that.

There must be some Canadian or Northerner you know that can go into a
lumber yard and ask for some basswood.
This stuff is used by woodcarver.  Decoys etc.  So I'm sure it is well
known by most lumber yard in the north.

Keep me posted.

Graham

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:14:17 -0500
Subject: [Baren 260] wood II 

Dear Graham and Matt et al

Thanks for the tips.  I called every lumber yard and woodcraft/wood working
number within a 50 mile radius.  As things happen in life the ON:LY one to
carry basswood is three blocks from my home.  So I jump in the car.

I now know what basswood looks like.  It is really rough.  I assume it
takes a lot of work to prepare it for cutting.  I didn't buy any because
most of it was chipped and broken.  They were almost out and will order
more.  What was usable was 2" think.  My God!!! I would have a hernia just
lifting the block......  The owner tells me he has no control over what
they send him but he has gotten 1"x12" in the past.

May I be allowed two rookie questions?  I am considering a 12" wide piece
cut to some length.  Is a larger piece of wood, thus a larger image to cut,
better  for a beginner because there would be fewer delicate and harder to
cut lines and thus be a little easier to control?  (Wishful thinking?)  Or
is a small block best because there is less waste area to cut away?
Second, what is the minimum thickness of a block to allow you to also use
the back side for economic reasons and do you guys ever do this?  

Thanks for all your help.  On my next trip north on Society business I
think I'll just have blocks cut to length and have the airlines ship them
back.  (Of course, the simple solution is to find a different kind of wood
easy to get locally but Dave says you two "rave" about basswood and looking
at your prints, I think I'll go with the pros.)

Ray

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:31:15 -0500
Subject: [Baren 261] Wood II A 

Graham:

I may have repeated questions you answered in my post so I was not clear.
In your answer you wrote the wood comes nicely sanded but I misread it and
thought you were talking about basswood when you were referring to plywood.
 The basswood in the store was very rough and that's why I sent the second
post.  (I have got to stop reading my e-mail while on the phone.)  Your
answer was very clear.

Ray

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:28:34 -0500
Subject: [Baren 262] Re: wood 

Ray,
Only made it to Ottawa once myself a few years ago.  Sorry I missed you.

Gary

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:50:00 -0500
Subject: [Baren 263] wood II 

Ray,

    Let me put in my disclaimer prior to making a suggestion.  I am not a
carver, or for that matter, a printer.
   I have had experience though with basswood,   having run miles of it
through planers, and believe it or not, though it comes sometimes almost
furry looking with small splinters, and often times cracked, checked, and
warped, it will plane down pretty smooth.   I imagine that would be the
simplest way to surface it.  Your local lumber yard ought to be able to
"surface" it for you, at least smooth enough for you to sand it down the
rest of the way.  It does however have a high percentage of waste, and care
must be taken to plane it in the proper direction or you get A LOT of
waste.
   Another option is to order shina plywood for your blocks.   This would
be mail order however, and if you're impatient to get started, may take a
week or so, so you'd have to "cool it" a while.  I have my prints carved
and printed by a person out East who is accustomed to using shina, and I
believe the results are quite satisfactory.  I'm sure they would not be the
quality of Dave's solid cherry planks, but as you're starting out, why not?
  They're easy to manage, I'm told, and relatively inexpensive.
 
  As a question out to the general Baren readership, has anyone tried
"Poplar" which is becoming more popular with the lumber yards, as a less
expensive but even-grained wood?  It seems to be taking the place of pine
as a trim and plank resource, though it is finer grained I believe.

  Another consideration with shina plywood vs. solid planks is warpage. 
How do the two of these compare in that respect?  Anyone used both?

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:46:25 +0900
Subject: [Baren 264] Re: What size is best? 

Ray wrote:
> Is a larger piece of wood, thus a larger image to cut,
> better  for a beginner because there would be fewer delicate and harder to
> cut lines and thus be a little easier to control?  (Wishful thinking?)  Or
> is a small block best because there is less waste area to cut away?

This is actually a far more complicated question that you probably
think.  There seems to be an optimal size for any particular design,
based on many factors: fineness or boldness of the lines, depth of
colour overprinting, etc.  If you get it wrong, and make a print on the
wrong 'scale', something always seems to be wrong with it once it's 
done ...   I'm sure the artist-types on [Baren] will be more articulate 
about this than I can be - they deal with this question every time 
they start a new print.

But that's not what you want to hear.  The answer _you_ need right now:
I've run quite a number of workshops for beginner printmakers, and have
seen them try all manner of sizes and designs.  Based on those
experiences, I think that something on the scale of about 150~170 mm X
200~220 mm works the best.  

Anything much smaller that this, and they just can't finesse the
details.  The block is too small to handle easily, and the inevitable
carving mistakes do a _lot_ of damage.  

Anything much larger, and it just starts to be too much work, both in
the cutting _and_ in the printing.

Try something in that range.

*****

> Second, what is the minimum thickness of a block to allow you to also use
> the back side for economic reasons and do you guys ever do this?

I can't speak at all of the basswood you are going to use, but the
generally accepted standard thickness for most blocks (cherry, magnolia)
over here is about 23mm.  This allows enough 'meat' for both sides to be
cut, and provides enough 'body' to give the block stability.


Dave

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:17:36 +0900
Subject: [Baren 265] Re: Encyclopedia 

OK!   Thanks for all the nice comments on the trial set-up of the
Encyclopedia!  Now for the questions I promised you ...

(1) Will anybody other than me _really_ want to take the time to prepare
contributions to this thing?  

In the beginning, I considered just making it 'David Bull's Encyclopedia
...' etc. etc., but once this multi-contributor idea popped up, I
couldn't resist it.  But do you really think that other people will join
this?  Or will they want to keep their own material to themselves, on
their own web sites, under their own names ...

There's not much point in setting it up this way if - after some years
have gone by - the only entries listed in each topic section are by
'David Bull' .


(2) There is no money in this.  If it builds up as I envisage, it will
become jammed full of interesting and useful information - stuff that
people would pay for if it was in traditional 'book' form  (certainly
_I_ would!).  But in cyberspace people will take what they want, and the
contributors will get nothing.

My answer:
Nothing but satisfaction!  In _my_ mind, I'm a woodblock printmaker.  I
make a living by making and selling prints.  I don't think that I should
be asking people to pay me to share information on what I've learned.
"What's that Ray, you've got another question about something?  That'll
be five dollars, please ..."   Get serious!

My philosophy on this is simple.  We should all put back as much as we
have taken out - more if possible.  Many many people have helped me all
the way along this road; without their assistance I would be _nothing_. 
It would be extremely selfish not to pass it on ...

But other people's answers may be different ...


(3) I've listed my name as 'General Editor'.  But what if this thing
really did start to take off?  As the web grows and bandwidth becomes
more available - this encyclopedia could become a repository of an awful
lot of information: videos on how to tie the baren skin, audio
interviews with printmakers, you name it - we could do it.

_We_ could do it!  I couldn't - by myself.  I've been fairly productive
during these past couple of years, but there are limits on how much time
I would be able to spend on this.  I called it the [Baren] encyclopedia
...  Would any of the [Baren] members _really_ be willing to 'step up'
and become - say - the editor for video presentations, or the editor of
the 'Print Image Database', or whatever else we dream up that could
become part of this?


(4) Encyclopedia 'navigation'.  Did you have any problems getting around
between the entries and the outline and back again?  A couple of people
saw an earlier version last week, and reported problems understanding
how to move around.  


(5) The Outline.   At the moment the outline is nothing more than an
outline of the sort of stuff that _I_ have learned about.  There is a
whole lot more out there that isn't included.  Suggestions on how the
outline could be restructured will be eagerly considered ...


*****

I sure hope this thing will take off.  I would go crazy to _read_
something like this.  It's a bit frustrating to think that I'm going to
have to wait a couple of years before I can!


Dave

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From: Phil Bivins <pbivins@ac.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:24:28 -0500
Subject: [Baren 266] Re: Encyclopedia 

Dave, I would be willing to help out in whatever capacity. I really don't
know what I can offer being a newbie. I do have a desire to learn a love of
the art and to  share with others. What can I do to help?

Phil

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:20:43 -0500
Subject: [Baren 267] Re: Encyclopedia 

Dave wrote:
>Nothing but satisfaction!  In _my_ mind, I'm a woodblock printmaker.  I
>make a living by making and selling prints.  I don't think that I should
>be asking people to pay me to share information on what I've learned.
>"What's that Ray, you've got another question about something?  That'll
>be five dollars, please ..."   Get serious!

Is David, in his inscrutable Japanese/Canadian way trying to "tell" me
something?
I do believe I am gaining a reputation.

>My philosophy on this is simple.  We should all put back as much as we
>have taken out - more if possible.  Many many people have helped me all
>the way along this road; without their assistance I would be _nothing_. 
>It would be extremely selfish not to pass it on ...

Good for you

>(3) I've listed my name as 'General Editor'.  But what if this thing
>really did start to take off?  As the web grows and bandwidth becomes
>more available - this encyclopedia could become a repository of an awful
>lot of information: videos on how to tie the baren skin, audio
>interviews with printmakers, you name it - we could do it.

Someone has to be General Editor.  Why not Dave Bull?  I doubt anyone would
object.  The role of the general editor is to coordinate.  I for one cannot
contribute today but perhaps in the future.  I would be shocked if the vast
talent on this forum did not jump in and participate.  Heck --- Look at all
my dumb questions and the patience everyone has shown.  If they can put up
with me (even at less than $5), they would love the opportunity to make a
contribution to something so relevent.  It will be the job of the G.E. to
select what does and does not go in.  You're in charge.  Who's to argue?

>_We_ could do it!  I couldn't - by myself.  I've been fairly productive
>during these past couple of years, but there are limits on how much time
>I would be able to spend on this.  I called it the [Baren] encyclopedia
>...  Would any of the [Baren] members _really_ be willing to 'step up'
>and become - say - the editor for video presentations, or the editor of
>the 'Print Image Database', or whatever else we dream up that could
>become part of this?

Over time.  I would be willing to help in any area where printmaking talent
is not requred.  Leave that to you, Matt, Gary, Graham and all the others.
But for those other jobs, I'm in.

>(4) Encyclopedia 'navigation'.  Did you have any problems getting around
>between the entries and the outline and back again?  A couple of people
>saw an earlier version last week, and reported problems understanding
>how to move around.  

No, it is very clear

>I sure hope this thing will take off.  I would go crazy to _read_
>something like this.  It's a bit frustrating to think that I'm going to
>have to wait a couple of years before I can!

It will.  Have faith,  It is too good an idea not too be a real winner.

Ray

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:25:47 -0500
Subject: [Baren 268] Re: wood II 

Gary wrote:
>   Let me put in my disclaimer prior to making a suggestion.  I am not a
>carver, or for that matter, a printer.
>   I have had experience though with basswood,   having run miles of it
>through planers, and believe it or not, though it comes sometimes almost
>furry looking with small splinters, and often times cracked, checked, and
>warped, it will plane down pretty smooth.   I imagine that would be the
>simplest way to surface it.  Your local lumber yard ought to be able to
>"surface" it for you, at least smooth enough for you to sand it down the
>rest of the way.  

Unfortunately, lumber yards do not have basswood.  The wood carving store
may not have the facility but I will ask.  it's a good idea.

>   Another option is to order shina plywood for your blocks.   This would
>be mail order however, and if you're impatient to get started, may take a
>week or so, so you'd have to "cool it" a while. 

I was born impatient but I have so many things to do right now I have
little choice.  Can you give me an address for a catalog or info?

>  As a question out to the general Baren readership, has anyone tried
>"Poplar" which is becoming more popular with the lumber yards, as a less
>expensive but even-grained wood?  It seems to be taking the place of pine
>as a trim and plank resource, though it is finer grained I believe.

I have noticed this trend in local lumber yards.  Would be interested in
hearing from anyone with experience.

Ray Esposito

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End of Baren Digest V2 #52
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