[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Thursday, 22 January 1998     Volume 02 : Number 043

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:12:59 -0500
Subject: [Baren 184] Re: Print editioning 

At 08:11 PM 1/20/98 EST, you wrote:

I want to put in my two cents about two subjects discussed, numbered
editions and reproductions.

REPRODUCTIONS:

>Graham described a 'mistake' a printmaker made: "They were strongly priced at
>$1000.00 to 1200.00 six or seven
>years ago.   He then took the images and had thousands of reproduction made
>that sold for $30.00 The screen prints are now worth half the price."

From this collectors point of view, this practice borders on fraud.  I know
I will irritate a lot of people but numbering reproductions is not art.  It
is business.  Passing these things off as art is wrong.  Numbering them to
make it seem like a true work of art that the artist had anything to do
with is even worse.  We are talking about a photograph reprinted in large
numbers.  Period.

I cannot accept numbered reproductions.    I have no objection to someone
doing this IF it is identified as a reproduction and not a work of art.
Even worse are those galleries who sell this crap as a "collectable" that
will increase in price and as a great investment.  I have just one
reproduction in my collection.  It is a Dali and was purchased only to be
used in my art appreciation classes to show students (it was adult
education) what NOT to buy.  Someone pointed out that this could be a way
of allowing those with fewer dollars to spend on art and to get them
interested in collecting.  Well and good.  I have no problem with this and
actively support it.  BUT I do not accept it when the collector is told
this is a work or art.

NUMBERED EDITIONS:

Prior to joining this forum, I would only have accepted the viewpoint that
numbered editions, and small editions at that, were the way to go.  After
reading posts by Dave, Matt and Graham, I have changed my opinion and can
actively accept "open" editions into my collection when produced by quality
artists doing the work themselves as you guys do.  

Permit me to be clear.  I supported the idea of numbered editions so
strongly because that was the system in place when I began collecting
almost 40 years ago.  As I became more experienced and expanded my
collection to older works back to the 14th century, which were never
numbered, I realized there was another way and that numbering editions is
relatively new.  The point is, should open editions be considered a system
for "putting" something over on the public to make money.  My original hard
edge viewpoint would have been yes for modern prints.  

Now that I have come to know all of you, I realize quality artists can do
open editions and the reasoning behind them, I am a convert to open
editions if that is what the artist feels is best.  Part of the problem is
that those of you who believe in open editions have to fight a very large
business monster in the galleries and printers who make a living off
numbering prints.

The strange twist here is, and I am not being funny, is the big guys often
mislead the public about numbering prints and what it means, and they make
millions.  You guys produce open prints with total honesty and you starve.
It truely is a cruel world.

Dave sent me one of his prints for Christmas.  It is not numbered.  It is
also one of the prized prints in my collection.  And if anyone asks "how
can you accept this if it isn't numbered", I have Dave and all of you to
thank for being able to answer that question.  (Conversion can be traumatic.)

> So when does reproducing an image add to its value and when does it
> detract? I have made postcards of some of my prints, and have often 
> wondered if they are helping or hindering sales of the prints 
> themselves. Does putting images on the web add or detract from 
> an image's 'specialness'?

Again, from the viewpoint of the collector, I see absolutely nothing wrong
with this practice.  You are not selling the postcards as works of art.
They are simply a way to advertise and an excellent way to show prospects
what you are doing.  By the way....how come I haven't I gotten a postcard?
:-)  

As to the web, it is another good way to advertise.  I wish more artists
would use the web to show their works.  Any kind of advertising that gets
your name in front of prospects, as long as it is truthful and faithful to
your work, is okay by this collector.

Ray Esposito

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:14:51 -0500
Subject: [Baren 185] Nothing to do with art 

Guys

This is just a curiosity question.  Who is on this forum?

We get some great posts and information exchanged but I notice that we have
a limited number of individuals participating.  That is not a complaint in
any way.  

I just notice Dave and Graham send most of the posts, with Bill and Matt
jumping in often and Dan, Pat and Gary giving their excellent thoughts
occasionally.  John Amoss has also joined in but not for awhile.

Obviously it is best not to say anything unless you can contribute which
all of those named above do.  But is the forum that small?  The reason I
ask is, is the "world" of wood cutting really so small that everyone knows
everyone else throughout the world?  

I was at two juried print shows last weekend.  Of the hundred plus prints
displayed, just two were woodcuts, one at each show, both "western" style.
It struck me that so few artists are involved in woodcut or linocut (which
is never even mentioned here).  Is this an art form that is in disfavor or
just too difficult for young people to take it up?  

Are we it?

I apologize for taking up space asking a non-woodcut question but my
curiosity got the better of me.  Better to have a few say great things than
a mob shouting nonsense.

Ray Esposito

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:37:11 -0800
Subject: [Baren 186] Re: Print pricing 

Dave wrote
>I've chatted with collectors/gallery visitors/ etc. about these things,
>and have heard on a number of occasions that my prints are 'too cheap'.
>I suspect that in 'status conscious' Japan, I may have lost quite a few
>sales as a result.  That may indeed be the case, but I think any such
>lost sales have been made up for by sales gained at the other end of the
>stick - people who can now afford the prints ...
>

Right on Dave.
I have been advised by numerous people that my prices are too low. It use
to happen with my watercolours and drawings and now with my prints.

These people have not been buyers. No, they have been Gallery owners and
other artists.  I came to the conclusion ten years ago that the gallery
owners want to make more money.  Well, who can blame them.   The Artist
want to sell there work for a higher or highest prices possible but when
the competition is low then they are locked in at or below that price.  It
all depends on where they are in their career.

I have a basic and simple philosophy.  I developed this by learning from
other artist who got greedy and after have a few good shows jacked their
prices considerably.

The philosophy is......You can always go up in price but never ever down.
On this basis my price structure has gone up verrrrry gradually over my career.

Well with the tough times in the art market, my arm is sore patting myself
on the back.

As you say.
- ---------------------------
>For me, I've got a full stomach and a bunch of happy collectors.
- ---------------------------

Graham

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From: Phil Bivins <pbivins@ac.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:27:37 -0500
Subject: [Baren 187] Newguy 

Hello, My name is Phil Bivins. I live in North Carolina, where I work
part time as a Registered Nurse in a local hospital. I have been
interested in printmaking for about a year now and just recently in
Japanese Woodblock. I have a few tools which I have purchased from a
company in Portland Oregon call, McClains. I have made an attempt and
have the desire to learn more of this fascinating artform. Presently I
am taking a course at a local community college in printmaking. We plan
to do woodcuts hopefully I"ll have something to share with them. I would
like to if anyone could suggest any books and possibly suppliers. Thank
you for sharing and allowing me to be a part of this list. I hope to be
a positive influence.  Thanks.

Phil

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:08:18 +0900
Subject: [Baren 188] Re: Nothing to do with art 

Ray wrote:

> This is just a curiosity question.  Who is on this forum?

There are at present 13 subscribers to [Baren].  I think you know most
of them.  There are three or four very very quiet members; I have spoken
to them privately, and it seems that although they are interested, they
don't feel that they have enough experience on these matters to make
active contributions.  I do hope that they will feel free to speak up
when a topic they have an interest in comes up.  (On the other hand,
they _could_ start their own threads anytime ...   Right, guys?)


> Are we it?

 Not completely.  I know of three or four other woodblock people out on
the net, and when [Baren]  started up I sent them mail letting them know
about it.  It seems that they chose not to join ...

In the very first [Baren] post I said:
> Note:  I would like to ask everybody to please refrain from widely
> publicizing this forum for a time ...  Until a general tone and style
> has been established, I would like to keep it to a relatively small
> size.  After a few weeks (months?) have passed, if all seems to be going
> well, we can then discuss opening up to the outside world, by putting
> links up on our web sites, etc. 

I certainly think that the time for 'opening up' has arrived; I put an
open link on my own site a few weeks ago, and if any of the rest of you
wish to do so, please feel free.  I am quite sure that we will not be
deluged with new members who will spoil the 'tone and style'.  I think
this group will remain quite a small circle ...

(By the way, [Baren] is actually known 'world-wide'.  An NHK TV
documentary on my work that aired a couple of weeks ago had a segment on
[Baren], and I have since learned (by emails from here and there) that
the program was re-broadcast in markets all over the world.)


> Is this an art form that is in disfavor or
> just too difficult for young people to take it up?

There seems no question that it seems to go in cycles.  In the early
part of the century, perhaps because of the fact that the Japanese
influence was so recent and vivid, there was a sort of woodblock
printmaking 'movement' in America and England.  It faded out, why I
don't know.  (Matt, you probably know a lot more about this than I do. 
What 'killed it off'?)

I personally happen to hold the view that this medium is capable of
extremely high levels of artistic accomplishment - and I think a
'revival' is very much in order.  And you may laugh at what I say next,
but I think that we just may be the first part of that.  One guy in a
suburb of Tokyo, and one guy in the New Hampshire woods, etc.  etc.
don't amount to anything; but when the day comes that [Baren] starts
holding international exhibitions, things will be different ...


> Better to have a few say great things than
> a mob shouting nonsense.

(Or maybe it's just a few shouting nonsense!  Who knows?)

Dave

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:16:46 -0500
Subject: [Baren 189] Re: Nothing to do with art 

At 08:08 AM 1/22/98 +0900, you wrote:
>Ray wrote:
>
>> This is just a curiosity question.  Who is on this forum?
>
>There are at present 13 subscribers to [Baren].  I think you know most
>of them.  There are three or four very very quiet members; I have spoken
>to them privately, and it seems that although they are interested, they
>don't feel that they have enough experience on these matters to make
>active contributions.  I do hope that they will feel free to speak up
>when a topic they have an interest in comes up.  (On the other hand,
>they _could_ start their own threads anytime ...   Right, guys?)
>

An open letter to the "quiet ones"

I would say sign on and at least say hello.  Not having have enough
experience certainly hasn't held me back.  And the reason for that is that
the guys on this forum really care about the subject and seem to enjoy
introducing it to others.  A great thing is that none of them seem to think
any question is silly if you really believe it and boy, have I asked some
dumb questions.  Let's all get together here even if you do not communicate
a lot.

Ray

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:19:36 -0500
Subject: [Baren 190] Re: Newguy 

At 06:27 PM 1/21/98 -0500, Phil wrote:
>Hello, My name is Phil Bivins.  ... etc.

Welcome Phil.
I can't help with the questions but there are guys on this forum who can
answer any you have.  I am envious that you can  take woodblock classes.
Damn!!!!!! living in print wasteland is beginning to get to me.  Look
forward to hearing more from you.

Ray Esposito
President/Founder
The Brass Ring Society
500 Macaw Lane, No. 5
Fern Park, Florida  32730
e-mail:	     brassring@brassring.org
WEB SITE:    http://www.brassring.org/brassring  	

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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:23:20 -0500
Subject: [Baren 191] Re: Nothing to do with art 

This is from one of those very very quiet members who seldom speaks.

First of all, a welcome to Phil from North Carolina.

  Now, I seldom contribute because I am not a printer, yet.  Perhaps
someday.  I am a designer.  I do not make my living by designing, I have a
full time day job.  Consequently I do not feel technically competent to
contribute to many of these discussions because I simply don't share in
that kind of experience.  I am interested in it however.  Actually I am
more interested in the technical trading of information than in the
philosophical exchange of opinion.  What I kind of had in mind when this
all started was that I would be listening to an exchange of technical
knowledge and learning from it.  I wanted to hear from someone how it feels
to lay a clean sheet of paper on top of a block, and just how with the
proper exertion here or there, a quick check underneath, an adjustment of
pigment or placement, the rubbing proceeds and a beautiful print results.

   I wanted to hear how blocks swelled or shrunk, how to deal with that,
how to prevent mildew, the proper mixture of paste and pigment, how you can
tell by looking at a freshly inked block whether you have inked it
properly, what do you do if the register starts wandering off, how you keep
blocks from warping, what kind of light you find best to work under, and
why, what temperature you keep in your workshop, do you control humidity,
do you do certain tasks at certain times of the year, what mixture do you
use in sizing the paper, do you size the paper or buy it pre-sized, what
are the disadvantages of both, how can you tell if the paper you are
ordering from a supply house is top quality or simply student-grade, what
do you eat for lunch on a printing day, do you swipe the baren across your
forehead or cheeks or hair to pick up oil during printing, where do you
find your design inspiration, what experiences have you had in the pursuit
of design material, who are your favorite artists and what do you hope to
learn from them that can be applied in printmaking, is anyone using exotic
materials in their printmaking, like what, and how, what effects does it
have, what happens if you're left handed and most of the tools are designed
for right-handers, do you sit on a stool, stand, or squat on the floor, and
why, do you sell your prints matted or not, is anyone else using the
internet to attempt to sell prints and have you had any luck, and a
thousand other questions.

   Graham, you do lighthouses and I presume you went to most of these
places.  You must have a ton of stories to tell like  paddling out in some
dinghy to get a shot from the sea of one of these lighthouses, or crawling
through the woods and wading streams, in other words some adventures that
took place while you were in pursuit of your design.  I'd like to hear that
kind of stuff.   The Canadian Group of Seven used to pack canoes in
railcars and head out of Toronto into the wilderness on sketching forays,
have you ever done anything like that?  What has been your most unusual
experience out in the rugged suburbs of Canada?

   Matt, ditto.  You have a good eye for design, as Graham has also, how
did you refine it?  You have a marvelous ability to condense a lot of
difficult visual information into a meaningful, attractive, yet simple
looking composition, is there a special way you have of doing that?   Do
you take a picture and work off a two dimensional drawing to help in the
simplification, do you sketch on site, do you sketch and fill in the color
at home, do it all on-site, or have another method?


   Dave, you don't need to answer all of these yourself.  Maybe a little
here and there.  Some have been touched on already. 

    Before I go back to being a wallflower....

   There's one more question that's been nagging me.  Ray, what is this
"Brass Ring Society"?  I see this credential under your name on your
entries and you have me wondering just what this thing is that you're
president of.   

   O.K.   I'm all ears.

Gary

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:52:09 -0500
Subject: [Baren 192] etching press 

I realize talking about presses is sacrilege on this forum but...

I am looking for a small etching press but do not have a lot of money to
spend.

Anyone got any ideas?

Ray

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From: Ray Esposito <brassring@brassring.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:59:05 -0500
Subject: [Baren 193] Re: Nothing to do with art 

>    Before I go back to being a wallflower....
>
>   There's one more question that's been nagging me.  Ray, what is this
>"Brass Ring Society"?  I see this credential under your name on your
>entries and you have me wondering just what this thing is that you're
>president of.   
>
>   O.K.   I'm all ears.
>
I don't want to get into a non-baren subject.  I will reply privately.

Ray

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:12:21 +0900
Subject: [Baren 194] Re: Nothing to do with art 

Gary asked:
> Ray, what is this "Brass Ring Society"

Ray replied:
> I don't want to get into a non-baren subject.  I will reply privately.


Ray is being a gentleman, and 'playing by the rules'.  But I don't feel
quite so bound by them as he does, and I feel free to recommend that
[Baren] members take a look at his web site.  It is completely unrelated
to woodblock printmaking, but will serve to let you know just what kind
of a person we are talking to (as if we didn't already know!).

He gives the address as:
http://www.brassring.org/brassring

but I have found:
http://www.worldramp.net/brassring/index.html

to be more accessible.


To Ray:
I can't speak for other members of the list, but if you feel there is
some way that woodblock printmakers can assist your work - maybe
donating prints for auctions, etc. - I hope you will not hesitate to
ask, perhaps by private email if you do not wish to 'disturb' the group.


Dave Bull

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:47:08 -0800
Subject: [Baren 195] Re: Almost no competition. 

 Ray wrote

>The reason I ask is, is the "world" of wood cutting really so small that
>everyone >knows everyone else throughout the world?
> Is this an art form that is in disfavor or
>just too difficult for young people to take it up?
>Are we it?

Actually Ray it is a interesting question.  Noboru, my teacher, has taught
lots of people here on the west coast and in Alberta.  I don't know of
anyone who is doing any work with the found knowledge they gained by taking
from him.  There were 25 persons that I met ... 13 in the class and 12 in
the following class that have not done anything to continue with the medium.

I tried to set up a class at my studio about 3 years ago . Advertised at
Colleges, Universities, Art Assoc. and Art College on the Vancouver Island,
as well as a an ad in the Newsletter of Federation of Canadian Artist
(Vancouver) with 2000 membership. that Noboru would be giving the class.
We spent about $300. advertising and promoting and got 3 people registered.
It was cancelled.

On asking Noboru why, he did not have a definitive answer.  He put forth
some thoughts....Scared of the carving,  Need for accuracy,  Too Hard was
the ones he could come up with.

I wonder that with time more people will get involved as the number of
artist increase.  Who knows.  Right now it is just fine with me.  How many
professions are out there with a minimum amount of competition.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:47:39 -0800
Subject: [Baren 196] Brushes. 

David I have a question.

I have always found that the number of hairs that come out of my inking
brushes are, on average about two or three with every inking.
This is truly a pain.  It takes a lot of diligent plucking of hair of the
plate and of coarse for every loose hair the smoothness of ink is screwed
up with the hair marks.  One has to redo to eventually get it right. Very
time consuming.

Is this usual or are my brushes letting me down.

Graham

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End of Baren Digest V2 #43
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