[Baren]: The mailing list / discussion forum for woodblock printmaking.

Baren Digest             Thursday, 15 January 1998     Volume 02 : Number 036

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From: Patrick Robinson <psyberdude@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:11:10 -0500
Subject: [Baren 147] Re: 'At the Gallery' 

>which of these prints have edition numbers?

None of them . . . that's our point, right?

Ahh-hhh, but now let's open another can of worms. The Renoir just happens 
to be one of only fifty examples printed on Japon paper, the other 950 
impressions were printed on a European handmade wove paper. Does this 
make it more "rare" than the same image printed on vellen? Well, the 
marketplace thinks so, since this is supposedly the first of these Japon 
paper prints to find its way back on the market in over 25 years. At 
least there's no record of one coming to the auction block during that 
time. In this case, there is no edition number on the  
print to show which part of the total edition it was. Instead, it is the 
paper itself that determines whether it is one of 50 or one of 950. That 
portion of the edition ***limited to fifty*** commands a considerable 
premium over the price paid for the examples from the 950. 

Now my question: What constitutes the "value" of this print? Is it the 
fact that it is drawn and signed by Pierre-Austuste Renoir, that it is by 
Renoir and is one of only fifty examples of a special Japon portion of 
the edition, or that it is a Renoir on Japon paper (known to number only 
50 impressions) that hasn't been on the market since the early 1970's?

And do I dare raise the point that even today we differentiate one 
edition from another by both date and censor seals . . . on a Hiroshige. 
Doesn't the "first" edition demand more of a price than a subsequent 
reprint from the same blocks?

I think that we need to be a little more honest about this "numbered 
limited edition" situation. There are art collectors who prize the 
element of rarity, and the global marketplace continues to support this 
differentiation by asking for and getting a premium price for rare, 
scarce art objects. 

Numbering is simply one way in which to "keep score" of the relative 
rarity of a print. Printmakers are certainly free to NOT use numbers if 
they wish. They don't even need to tell their customers how many 
impressions were printed. But if they do, I can sell the print more 
easily and for more money! That's a fact!

Hopefully, some of what I've said will serve as grist for the 
thread-mill. 

Patrick

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:26:57 -0800
Subject: [Baren 148] Re: Mind of a printer 

I have not condensed the information of Baren 99 in this response for those
that problably didn't keep a copy.
I just can't let it go by with out expressing an artists view.

>Oh, these artists!  They really do have a different view from us of what
>the word 'printmaker' means.
AND
>Monotonous?  After seeing that quote, I wondered just _how_ I could
>let him see what I see!  And how I could do it without seeming to be
>against his ideas, and without hurting him ...

Maybe this will help the printer understand.

If your printer had ever experienced the anticipation and excitement of
creating an image from the beginning to the end he would soon realize just
how monotous print is.  Imagine painting in watercolours where every wash
and/or stroke has the potential of spoiling the work.  Every time you drop
in a touch of colour which has never been done before or a shape that is
completely different to the last and therefore totally original in its
concept. We can't overlook the experience and knowledge of how Colour and
Value can effect the end results.  When well experience the exhileration of
creativity it sure causes an adrenalin rush.

With the medium of watercolour you do not have the luxury of making
correction by getting out the white pigment and doing a patch over and redo
the area.  Most other mediums have this facility and are less difficult and
exciting as a result. Mind you it is not the medium that is important but
the image ...that mix of line shape and colour that is exciting making the
original unique.

For quiet a few years I taught watercolours in hundreds of classes across
Canada.  I have experienced the excitement of setting out a piece of paper
to create something I had never done before. All of this with 30 or 40
people watching, in my overhead mirror, each and every stroke of colour
until the image was finished.  I have had people come up afterwards and
express the feelings of anxiety they experienced while I was doing the
painting.  I never experienced this during a painting but certainly before
I applied the first stroke. By comparison the printing process certainly
pales.

Well if the printer had this experience behind him I think he would come to
realize that there is a form of monotony from the repetition in the
physical operation of woodblock prints. He is duplicating that which is a
creation.  Be it a difficult craft and skill the dulplication does not
compare with the creation of an original.

But then I suppose we are comparing apples and oranges.  They are two
different disciplines and I know that both have there merits and result in
images to behold.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:26:48 -0800
Subject: [Baren 149] Epson 800 

Gary,
I do all of my Promotional material on the computer and then the 800 does
the printing.
It has been a life, time and money saver as I can get exactly what I want
on the brochures.

I don't do any art work other than retouch some of the scans.  Certainly a
wonderful tool.

cheers

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:10:38 -0800
Subject: [Baren 150] Re: 'At the Gallery' 

Good stuff Patrick.

It is most interesting to hear from someone in the business and is exposed to
numerous situations in the market place..

I have two questions.

Have you ever heard about and have experience with editions be it hand
pulled or of the high speed press reproductions that are produced and sold
to different markets.  i.e. a run for the American, one for the European
and one for the Asian  markets all with there own numbers.?

Second question.

Have you ever heard of any other artist besides Bateman who only signs a
portion of the run and the rest are done by a computer plotter. I had a
person in my studio about 4 years ago who told me that.  He worked for Mill
Pond press and was so disguest with their practise that he quit.  I found
it interesting and wondered if it was sour grapes until I talked to a
gallery in Vancouver that had actually received a print that had a double
signature, one very slightly offset from the other.

Now that is dishonesty David.

Graham

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From: Graham Scholes <gscholes@islandnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:25:17 -0800
Subject: [Baren 151] Re: Barens 

Matt,

Did I respond to this?

Graham

>Dave and Graham,
>	Can you both get into a few specifics about barens for a would-be
>buyer? (Like where and what?) Dave's prodding has me wondering if this
>beautiful plastic baren of mine is 'not the only fish in the sea for me'.


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From: Gary Luedtke <GLuedtke@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:58:53 -0500
Subject: [Baren 152] Epson 800 

Exactly Graham,
   I use it for that sort of thing too, and it does a magnificent job. 
What I meant was that I use it along the way in developing the composition
of a print, not to print on the paper I will actually sell.  Sorry if that
wasn't clear.  

Gary

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From: David Bull <davebull@asahi-net.email.ne.jp>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:50:33 +0900
Subject: [Baren 153] Re: 'At the Gallery' 

Pat, 

It was interesting to read your explanation of why those three prints
sell for so much money even though they don't have edition numbers.

Your point, if I understand correctly, is that they are _rare_, and thus
are in high demand.

These three prints have obviously crossed the line between being normal
articles of commerce and becoming 'antiques'.  They have become
'limited' in a very natural way, simply by the passage of time.  I
accept this sort of 'limitation' with no hesitation or complaint.

My problem is when people try to 'hurry up' that process by limiting
from the beginning ...

Dave

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End of Baren Digest V2 #36
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